The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[Cilia]

We neither know what the threshold to overpower the Echo would need to be, nor whether it's based on "power" in a general sense to begin with. For example, Zodiark was far more powerful than Hydaelyn, but the Ancient's Echoes were far more powerful than WoL's Echo.

Point is no one can definitively say whether or not that's the case. An undefined value doesn't constitute evidence. "But it's possible...": see below.

Do we have any examples of this being the case?

Remember: this is always technically true. This is important. Remember this.

If it's a subtle form of tempering, I doubt anyone would be able to tell.

Tempering has never been subtle. If you insist on pressing "But it's possible...", see above.

And as has similarly been pointed out before, it may be that her tempering isn't actively controlling anybody. It's been building for years now that tempering comes in many different forms and some are all but undetectable.

If it's neither actively nor passively controlling anybody, it's not really tempering. Bears repeating: Hydaelyn has never compelled anybody to do anything. If her blessed chosen could be compelled, why would she not compel those who defy her will and invite catastrophe to, you know... not do so?

Well-intentioned maybe, but not just deceitful. I fail to understand how you can say that compelling people to follow her will isn't in her character when A, she draws every Echo-user into following her cause without telling them the truth the moment they awaken it, B, she has given explicit commands in the past for her followers to carry out, and C, she forcibly sundered the entire world against the will of the majority of the Ancients. In particular with that last one, it shows a willingness to disregard people's lives for the sake of her mission.

People hear Hydaelyn's call and assume she is a goddess; that's a misinterpretation on their part due to limited knowledge.

I don't recall any explicit, let alone compelled, commands from Hydaelyn. "Fight the Ascians," "drive out the Darkness," etc. are either eminently necessary for self-preservation or incredibly vague. She never says "Go to Ishgard and kill the Ascians pulling their strings because I'm a goddess and I say so," or such. We haven't even heard from her (directly at any rate) since 3.0.

Bears repeating: now armed with truth, we haven't gotten Hydaelyn's side of the story. "She didn't care about killing lots of people" is the least generous interpretation of her actions, but it's just that - an interpretation without context. Maybe it was an accident. Maybe it was a grim necessity for a greater purpose. Maybe she was just following her programming regardless of consequences. Or maybe she really did say "Screw these guys!" and break the world for shiggles. We don't know.

[Veloran]

"But it's possible...": see below.

This is not a good argument. It's only natural to look at what is possible within the established rules of the setting, compare and contrast relevant information, and draw conclusions based on the available evidence. In the case of the Echo being overwritten by tempering, we know it is possible, if not strictly how, and so to look at Hydaelyn and Zodiark, both of them sharing origins with the Ancients and being immensely powerful Primals capable of massively altering reality, it is completely reasonable to suggest that if one could temper the Ancients, the other could likely temper WoL. This "Well ANYTHING IS MAYBE POSSIBLE" as a response is just anathema to discussion.

Remember

So no, you don't have any examples?

Tempering has never been subtle.

But it absolutely has been. The Heaven's Ward were tempered, yet their behavior was consistent with what it was previously and it went unnoticed. Nobody really knew whether or not Ga Bu was tempered or if it was simply the trauma of losing his parents for years. Multiple tempered infiltrators have maintained their covers underneath the Alliance's noses. And while some were outright zealous, Emet-Selch and a few of the other Ascians took actions that would simply be contradictory to the notion that they were tempered, at least how we would usually conceive of it. This is particularly relevant to the situation with Hydaelyn because the only Primal which is anywhere analogous to her is Zodiark, meaning that if his tempering allows for such behavior, it is reasonable to say that hers may as well.

Bears repeating: Hydaelyn has never compelled anybody to do anything.

She compelled Ardbert to stay his blade when he attempted to attack Minfilia. If you would say that wasn't due to tempering, I would say her power to do that would be extremely inconsistent with her stated status of being too weak to lift a finger towards anything.

If her blessed chosen could be compelled, why would she not compel those who defy her will and invite catastrophe to, you know... not do so?

It may be that in many of those instances, what those characters were doing was Hydaelyn's will. Consider: Ysayle's summoning of Shiva would set off a chain of events which led to the end of the Dragonsong War and united dragon and man, as well as saving WoL's life. The Warriors of Darkness worked with the Ascians, but in this instance the goals of the Ascians and Hydaelyn, to not see the First consumed by Light and destroyed, were aligned. Indeed the Ascians needed Hydaelyn to intervene in order to save the shard. Furthermore Minfilia would spare Ardbert the fate of his friends, knowing that he would be important much later down the line. Even the summoning of Ultima and introduction of auracite to the world would prove to be important much later, as the study and development of white auracite was vital in killing Ascians.

This is a universe where some people with the Echo can quite literally see the future. And Ardbert being spared with both he and WoL being told that he would serve an important role really is not explainable without some form of foresight on her part. I would even suggest here that the reason it had to be Venat who served as Hydaelyn's heart is because she was gifted in this ability.

People hear Hydaelyn's call and assume she is a goddess; that's a misinterpretation on their part due to limited knowledge.

The knowledge is limited and misinterpretation made because of Hydaelyn. It was the intent of her and her summoners to hide the history of the world.

I don't recall any explicit, let alone compelled, commands from Hydaelyn. "Fight the Ascians," "drive out the Darkness," etc. are either eminently necessary for self-preservation or incredibly vague.

I would think that saying the Ascians "cannot be suffered to live" and telling WoL to destroy them is a fairly direct commandment, if not one which is immediately actionable.

Or maybe she really did say "Screw these guys!" and break the world for shiggles.

This is a disingenuous interpretation of what I was suggesting. My point here is that she clearly considered her mission important to the point of taking lives - Everyone's lives - For the cause. Even if this is ultimately for completely justifiable reasons, if circumstances repeat themselves and we find ourselves in that situation again, do you really think WoL would be willing to accept that? Azem wasn't the first time around.

[Vyrerus]

So I'm going to repeat my question: What would this add? Right now, I'm only seeing it take away and provide a cheap gotcha, so I'd really like to know, what end does someone who thinks this is true expect to see from this? Is it just to get pretense to fight a blue rock?

We definitely do see the story through different lenses. We do have vastly different lived experience, as well as probably different game libraries which provide a backdrop for our thinking, perhaps.


I've played RPGs since about the age of 4, so for roughly 28 years. While that doesn't have any bearing on whether my ideas hold more weight or not, I've just seen a lot of RPG plots. To your question I would first ask, "What has any RPG with "twists," or reveals like this, ever added?" Answers vary, but it's usually a recontextualization of earlier scenes, earlier choices, and earlier events.

My next bit is not exceptionally relevant, but your question and post make me think of Xenogears, probably because FFXIV Shadowbringers also made me think of Xenogears. That game has multiple reveals and twists as you unravel the mysterious skein that winds up being its story. I particularly think of the Kislev Sewer sequence, which sees a set of evidence set against the protagonist, but he "proves" his innocence by slaying the supposedly guilty monster. Of course, there's probably better analogies to pull from that game, so I won't go into full detail, but the whole of the game is very much one reveal after the next, with the game always leaving the player predicting/knowing that more and more will be revealed as they play. Till at last, the whole of almost every enigma has been unwound, solved, made known, and the player can be satisfied that the story is done.

So while some scenes, some important and others not so important might lose out from this reveal... They only lose out in hindsight. Once the story is viewed in total. If the total summation of the story is greater than what little they lose, then they won't much matter. I mean, Ifrit doesn't much matter to us now, does he?

To really grasp what might be possible from a reveal that the WoL has been Tempered all along we would have to give the Tempering weight. The characters would need to react negatively to it, because if it's easily brushed aside, then yeah. It would just be a cheap reveal that barely matters and detracts from the story.

There's another thread in the lore section though, asking a question about the WoL's mental state. Why don't they breakdown? Well, simply, not enough straws are on the camel's back. Perhaps revealing that the WoL's agency is not entirely their own could be that final straw, and we could get self impelled quest objectives that see us leave our friends behind temporarily, or at least try too. It wouldn't really be any different than in FFIX when Zidane is revealed to be a Genome(and angel of death), and he has his little breakdown that lasts all of 10 minutes(in a scene that I think, frankly, sucks. Of course, I hate Zidane so... ehh biases biases biases). I'd much prefer a Fei/Id style breakdown, like the one that resulted in the destruction of Solaris.

It's not really the reveal itself that creates the value. It's the aftermath, the fallout.

Plus, outside of the story and game it would finally end this tired discussion. One way or the other. Even if the WoL was never Tempered, and I have to be disappointed in my powers of prediction yet again(and I have been a lot, honestly), the definitive end to this subject would be most welcome.

[Cleretic]

Plus, outside of the story and game it would finally end this tired discussion. One way or the other. Even if the WoL was never Tempered, and I have to be disappointed in my powers of prediction yet again(and I have been a lot, honestly), the definitive end to this subject would be most welcome.

Finally we agree on something. Frankly I've been tired of this theory ever since it came up, because again, it has a negative amount of evidence; not only is all in support circumstantial at best, but it requires throwing out long-standing factual statements that we have no reason to distrust except that it doesn't align with this one theory.

Also, I think the game itself is just far more interesting if the giant malevolent angry fire beast is actually a trustworthy source of accurate information. I've played a lot of games that try to do 'Light God is actually Real Bad Guy', and while success is mixed, it all feels very familiar anyway, to the point where I feel like Hydaelyn actually remaining exclusively benevolent and positive would actually set FFXIV apart from the crowd. But I don't get many games that go 'this thing is a giant horrible beast that needs to die, and also as a separate detail gives reliable and useful story and setting information with nearly every single sentence he speaks', and that's something I want to see more of.

Although, as I mentioned once before, I'm still skeptical about what sort of 'confirmation' would actually be believed. I feel like Hydaelyn herself coming down and saying that we're not tempered wouldn't be accepted by people who think she has. The only plausible disproving I could picture would be to see her actually temper the WoL, intentionally or not, but I could still picture people going 'oh we were already tempered, but licking the mothercrystal to get the power to kill Zenos just tempered us MORE'.

[Vyrerus]

but licking the mothercrystal to get the power to kill Zenos just tempered us MORE'.

Heh, "Tastes salty." A Quina reference would be hilarious.

Thing is though, as I pointed out. Ifrit's knowledge isn't first hand. He doesn't know what's going on any better than the priest. He's falling back on knowledge he gained from the Ascians. The other implication of this scene, and both the priest and Ifrit's need to exposit what's going on, is that they've never encountered someone who couldn't be Tempered. Otherwise they wouldn't both be surprised. The take away for the player, at the time, is that we can't be Tempered specifically by the bad guys.

Fast forward to Garuda. When we defeat her, she doesn't disperse, though she does sort of float-writhe a bit before trying to Temper us. It fails, and she also expresses shock. Not only does it fail though, but we flex an aura of light around our body, which hits her, causing the Wind Crystal of Light to be drawn out of her bosom and draws it to us. Gaius shows up and mocks her, and she finally makes note of, "That foul stench... She has touched you!" She's the only one not mentioning Ascians, and the only one(of 2.0) to detect our dank Hydaelyn stench.

Flash forward to Ramuh. "Thine aura betrays thee, servant of Hydaelyn."

To Ravana, we already had one tendril of the "Blessing" back.

For Bismarck we had three. For Thordan, complete and stronger than before.

So we've actually never canonically been completely without it when fighting primals. (Unless you wanna try to place Battle of the Big Keep after Keeper of the Lake).

Also someone asked earlier in the thread, "When were we tempered if we were?" Well, in hindsight we know that primals turn their energy blue when they temper someone. Makes it visually distinct. The first cutscene of the game, immediately after character creation involves the orange light turning blue and then completely engulfing us in blue white flame, transforming us into a warrior and arming us with a weapon of light.

Anyway, when and if the game confirms the idea moot, invalid, or true, I'll live with it. I don't insist on things that the game completely flattens.

[Cleretic]

Ifrit does rely on first-hand knowledge, though. Again, he denies we're tempered because he has the ability to smell that, and doesn't smell it on us, which is what then leads him down alternate possibilities. He's the only one who weighs in on this who actually cites first-hand knowledge for his conclusion, in fact. Unless we're declaring that the WoL has always been tempered, in which case that skill and accomplishment is taken away from him and so he's rendered dumber than the priest he's correcting, who at the time was saying something never proven wrong and has now come to the correct conclusion, while Ifrit is now specifically incorrect and led down a wrong path because of it.

C'mon, don't do our boy dirty like that. He does good Summoner DPS!

EDIT: Actually, if we declare the WoL to be tempered then the entire conversation stops making rational sense.
The priest claims that the only possibility is that we're tempered, which is now him coming to the correct conclusion about the WoL but not about that being the only way to be immune (or possibly even not about our immunity).
Ifrit declares us to not be tempered because his nose knows (which is now wrong), but rather of 'the godless blessed's number', which is now declared to be being tempered by Hydaelyn, which is what the priest thought. So Ifrit is now disagreeing with the priest while... agreeing with the priest.

I feel like FFXIV's writers are better than writing that sloppy.

[waifugenerator]

Ifrit does rely on first-hand knowledge, though. Again, he denies we're tempered because he has the ability to smell that, and doesn't smell it on us, which is what then leads him down alternate possibilities. He's the only one who weighs in on this who actually cites first-hand knowledge for his conclusion, in fact. Unless we're declaring that the WoL has always been tempered, in which case that skill and accomplishment is taken away from him and so he's rendered dumber than the priest he's correcting, who at the time was saying something never proven wrong and has now come to the correct conclusion, while Ifrit is now specifically incorrect and led down a wrong path because of it.

C'mon, don't do our boy dirty like that. He does good Summoner DPS!

EDIT: Actually, if we declare the WoL to be tempered then the entire conversation stops making rational sense.
The priest claims that the only possibility is that we're tempered, which is now him coming to the correct conclusion about the WoL but not about that being the only way to be immune (or possibly even not about our immunity).
Ifrit declares us to not be tempered because his nose knows (which is now wrong), but rather of 'the godless blessed's number', which is now declared to be being tempered by Hydaelyn, which is what the priest thought. So Ifrit is now disagreeing with the priest while... agreeing with the priest.

I feel like FFXIV's writers are better than writing that sloppy.

I don't think they even knew where they were going with Zodiark/Hydaelyn back then

[Cleretic]

I don't think they even knew where they were going with Zodiark/Hydaelyn back then

It's the same content batch as Lahabrea's Praetorium speech, where he does actually lay down the Zodiark-Hydaelyn conflict mostly correctly, just in... sort of an oblique way that now reads as a twisted worldview based on real facts. So we can reason that even if plans did change, they didn't change much, or were changed in a way that respects what was written (as rightly it should, but isn't always held to by long-running stories).

But if we assume that Lahabrea's speech was supposed to be correct when they wrote it (since when they wrote it they didn't know FFXIV would be enough of a hit to get further story), then neither Zodiark nor Hydaelyn were supposed to be primals at all since they're phrased to be some form of greater cosmic-scale deities, meaning that all the nebulous 'maybe that's what they mean' from figures like Garuda and Gaius were never meant like that anyway.

[Rosenstrauch]

I don't think they even knew where they were going with Zodiark/Hydaelyn back then

I'd even go as far as saying the way these details developed over the course of the game's life may have gone like this:

1.0: Hydaelyn is just the name of the planet, and the Echo is a supernatural power that grants immunity to tempering on top of a platter of other assorted things.
2.0: Hydaelyn is the one true goddess, Zodiark is the Evil God of Darkness and Chaos, and the Echo is the Blessing of Light. You are only immune to tempering because Hydaelyn is personally protecting you.
2.5: Hydaelyn is the one true goddess, Zodiark is the Evil God of Darkness and Chaos, and the Echo and the Blessing of Light are separate things. Thus you can still safely fight primals, even though Midgardsormr broke your Blessing.
4.0: Hydaelyn is the one true goddess, Zodiark is the Evil God of Darkness and Chaos, and the Echo gives you a fighting chance over a primal's influence, allowing you to control them if your will is strong enough.
5.0: Hydaelyn is a primal of Light and ???, Zodiark is a primal of Darkness and Salvation, and the Echo provides no defense against a primal's will if their power is great enough.
5.3+?: Zenos wants to play Planetary Rock'em Sock'em Robots, and he's called dibs on the purple one. (I seriously hope they don't do this.)

[Lyth]

6.0: Hydaelyn and Zodiark are both sundered fragments that arose from Necron, the original primordial primal of the void, the Echo is a debuff in the final fight that you can click off, the Lambs of Dalamud are running the show in Sharlayan, Zenos is walking around with the rest of Azem's sundered rejoinings, and Tataru has joined forces with Rowena to profit off your successes through Azem Fan Club T-shirt sales.