The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[Layte_Aeon]

Currently we have 3 examples of individuals summoning primals into themselves (I'm not including the Lucavi as they are a different beast altogether): Ysale with Shiva, Archbishop Thordan with King THordan and Yotsuyu with Tsukiyomi.

Ysale had the echo and the blessing of light, but according to Hraesvelgr, had deluded herself into thinking she was Shiva reborn instead of manifesting her vison of Shiva.

Archbishop Thordan, so far as we know did not have the echo, yet summoned Thordan within himself, seemingly multiple times to temper the Heaven's Ward. Despite this no one noticed anything out of the ordinary with him. While the Heaven's Ward could be excused as they were only lightly tempered, calling a Primal into oneself seems like it would do more than lightly singe one's nature.

Much the same could be said of Yotsuyu. She summoned Tsukuyomi into herself with a few chests of crystals and a hand mirror. Like Thordan she seemed to not have the echo. Although there is something Tsukuyomi did that no other primal has done: Draw strength not from faith or crystals, but from her summoners memories of suffering. Since a part of tempering is the dampening of a sense of self it seems peculiar that a primal can draw from something that requires a strong sense of self.

Of course it could also be that becoming a primal even once without the echo changes one to a point where the question of tempering is meaningless. I mean Ifrit can temper, does that mean he is tempered to himself?

[MikkoAkure]

@Cleretic, a littttle off topic, but you're probably the guy to ask:

Is there any info on SELF tempering? Like Shiva- by all accounts she is the primal itself..but was she ever in any way tempered by her own ideals? I think not, but like I said- you're probably the one who knows.

King Thordan is possibly an easier character to sort out in this..but Shiva.. weird. She was not only a primal, but also had a light crystal/Hydaelyn's blessings. There seemed to be some kind of limit to her ability to either control or become Shiva.



Secondly, and more for anyone... is there evidence that Primals are actual individual entities? That is to say, if group A summoned Ifrit, could another group summon an entirely different Ifrit? (We're kind of seeing that with the Lunar variants)

Or- the Titan we fought originally was obviously the will of the Kobolds, but the Titan we fought when Ga bu's parents were kiilled was a Titan of Ga Bu's will/anger. To me, these are entirely different entities.

If so...(purely theoretically) a more benevolent or even controllable Garuda/Titan/whatever might be possible. She wouldn't carry a grudge as this Garuda is simply not the Garuda we defeated. The new Garuda might not even have any memories of us (Assuming we killed all Ixal present in the first summoning). The fact that a summoner can create Egi (and soon actual full on Garuda/Titan/Ifrit) seems to suggest that these are not actual individuals, but just "will made manafest".. more like a computer program or robot than creature.

Shiva: Ysayle was able to summon Shiva unto herself due to having the Echo. Similar to how Zenos combined himself with Shinryu using the Resonant.

Other versions of Primals: In an interview with Koji Fox, he described that if belief in the original being Ifrit slowly diverged over time in two separate populations, each could still summon their own version of Ifrit that has different personalities and memories with both still being "Ifrit". Similarly, Lahabrea attempts to get a group of Ala Mhigans to summon Rhalgr, a god theorized to come from a similar source as Ramuh.

Anwyll: You mentioned on the forums that the summoning of Bahamut reassembled a specific entity that was amongst the Lifestream. Since something specific is answering the beacon of prayer, is that why, once captured (a la the Ultima Weapon, for example), another copy cannot be summoned?

Koji Fox: Yes. Yes! But as I mentioned with the Phoenix, depending on the culture, there’s a different perception of what it was. Was it a god? Was it a savior? Was it evil? Let’s use Ifrit as an example, though I’m not saying this is really the case with him. The Amalj’aa look at him as an angry god that wants to purify the land with his flames. When they summon him, they pray to that type of Ifrit, and it forms. Say, in the New World, thousands of miles away, there is also the legend of Ifrit, but in the thousands of years since that original seed of myth, he’s grown into a very benevolent god that… gives flowers to children and is the fire that roasts your marshmallows… that’s a different essence, even though it’s the same Ifrit. Those two could exist simultaneously. But if Amalj’aa summon one Ifrit and some other Amalj’aa who worship the same Ifrit try to do the same thing, they could not.

In regards to what you said before regarding Asians and Ifrit, I don't see a discrepancy. The Ascians are the beings who taught the Amalja'a how to summon Ifrit and are on a completely different level from a random adventurer brought as tribute who is immune to tempering. The Ascians brought Ifrit into existence, they wouldn't be considered thrall-bait to him and wouldn't be compared to us.

Also, primals do have comprehension beyond their summoners. In the quote I provided above, Ifrit himself disagrees with his summoner. We also have Ramuh, who goes against his summoner's wishes and refuses to enthrall anyone beyond the initial summoners, doesn't cause a ruckus like the other primals, and understands that he's a detriment to the planet.

We also have Ajora, who is a full blown Warrior of Light who goes against Hydaelyn's wishes and performs a summoning so powerful it destroys a nation and threatens to corrupt Hydaelyn herself. I'd find it hard to believe that someone who's tempered would be able to do such a thing.

[Cleretic]

@Cleretic, a littttle off topic, but you're probably the guy to ask:

First of all, I'm a girl, but to the best of my knowledge on your questions!

On self-tempering: Ysayle had the Echo, and so was not tempered by channeling Shiva; even if this wasn't explicitly stated at some point in 2.x or Heavensward, it was brought up directly in Save the Queen--as well as the danger that if she didn't, she'd get tempered for trying. So reasonably speaking, yeah, that happens if you channel a primal, just as summoning a primal the normal way tempers the summoners.

As for examples, though... well, technically we have two: Archbishop Thordan channeling King Thordan, and Yotsuyu channeling Tsukuyomi. But both of those are a little different:

• The main struggle with Archbishop Thordan is that we likely never met him before he first performed the summon. So while reasonably he probably was tempered, it's hard to say how much of an effect it had, because we lack a baseline. He certainly seems very self-motivated, but he's also got huge delusions of grandeur and a belief in his divine rite to rule; and it's actually hard to say how much of that is himself, and how much of that came from him channeling a primal of the forefather that he believed had a divine rite to rule. But at the same time, we have to reason that Thordan performed that first summoning somewhat recently before we turn up in Ishgard, because the Ascians themselves only turned their attention to it at some point in 2.x. Since nobody mentions a change in behavior, we can reasonably believe either he was lightly tempered (as he'd lightly temper the Heavensward), or that he just didn't change much afterward.
• And Yotsuyu didn't really summon Tsukuyomi with any external image or intention at all, and it shows; there isn't anything else going on in her fight, it's basically 'Yotsuyu's Big Villain Number' with some extra lunar aesthetic. If she was tempered by anything... it might have just been her own mind and mental state. Which for her might've meant she was angry and depressed for the rest of her life (which turned out to be fairly short), but could've been an angle that worked if done by someone like, say, Ilberd.

On alternate summonings: As Mikko has said, Koji said at one point that while you can only summon one of a primal at a time, you could diverge hard enough that two different versions of Ifrit could exist simultaneously. I actually think it's worth saying, though, that it's not clear if this is a metaphysical thing or a more psychological thing. Is it that there's only one 'Ifrit Soul' until things get too wildly different, or is it that a summoner reasonably can't summon a version of Ifrit similar to one that's already around, because... well, they can't fully believe in their One True Ifrit enough to summon right now, because he looks the same as the other tribe's Ifrit and he's right over there.

And we've actually seen very tangibly different primals: Remember Double-Headed Leviathan, ATV Titan, and all their friends. So we know that part is true, it's just that nobody's really gotten too rigorous and crazy with it. We also couldn't really tell if in that case they shared memories with their Source counterparts, because they never showed any indication of it, although they all seemed to act about the same.

EDIT: Egis, for the record, aren't really related to the primal soul-wise. Instead that's essentially the summoner making a miniature replica of an aetheric signature that they've come into contact with before. It's like how, if you made a miniature figure of Chris Hemsworth, there's no real illusion that it's in any way connected to the literal, 'real' Chris Hemsworth, but it also cannot possibly exist in this form without some level of contact and familiarity with Chris Hemsworth.

[Yuella]

Ok, I think I figured it out and if I'm wrong I'm going to unsub permanently and uninstall FFXIV from my laptop (I will post videos of me uninstalling FFXIV).

Here it goes:
Hydaelyn was not summoned to shackle Zodiark. She was summoned to shackle Darkness / The Sound. In order to shackle Darkness she needed to sunder the star and Zodiark getting sundered is just part of the package. An unfortunately necessary side effect. Whenever Minfilia (in 3.2 after The Anti Tower) and Venat (in 5.2 after Anemnesis Anyder and again at the final cutscene of 5.55) talked about Darkness, they were not refering to Zodiark. They were refering to the Sound. Note that Venat said "Darkness comes", not "Zodiark comes".



Here's the proof:
First, Venat's group acknowledged that Zodiark was useful to stop the Sound. However, they recognized that this was not a permanent solution. The Sound will eventually defeat Zodiark and destroy the world. They tried to warn the convocation but were ignored.



This was also mentioned by Minfilia in the Anti Tower.



Note that she said "Darkness coveted power", not "Zodiark coveted power". But what about the first statement in that pic? Light and Dark did once dwell as one? I believe Light here actually refers to Zodiark! Zodiark was summoned to balance the Sound! Since the Sound was Darkness, Zodiark was Light! That's why Elidibus, as the heart of Zodiark, cares so much about balance. Because the essence of Zodiark is to balance Light and Darkness. And that's why Elidibus appeared as the Warrior of Light, because Zodiark was a being of Light! Unfortunately, Darkness is winning the battle and Zodiark is losing, which Venat's group realized.

What about when she said "I was forced to banish Him unto the distant heavens". Him here can refer to either the Sound of Zodiark but I believe it's Zodiark. She was forced to banish Him as a side effect of the sundering. She sundered the star to prevent Darkness / the Sound from getting stronger and unfortunately, Zodiark has to be sundered as well. She was forced to do it.

And note her face expression when she said Zodiark wanted to become whole and that the Ascians are working tirelessly to achieve this. It's an expression of sadness, not anger. She understood why the Ascians want to do it but she could not allow it because that means the Sound would be a threat once again.



Everytime a rejoining happens, Darkness / the Sound gets stronger. Note that she said "Darkness grown stronger" not "Zodiark grown stronger"



(continues below)

[Yuella]

This is echoed by Venat's group. They had no hate towards the convocation. They knew the convocation wanted to save the star. It's just that the convocation's method was not a permanent solution. They knew summoning Hydaelyn would anger the convocation



Unfortunately they had to do it. They summoned a SECOND Light Primal, Hydaelyn, as a permanent solution (as long as the rejoinings don't happen). Note again that they said "keep the Darkness in check" not "keep Zodiark in check"



Unfortunately we know now that it's also not permanent because the Ascians did the rejoinings. Maybe Azem foresaw this? That's why he didn't join Venat's group. Azem knew his friend Emet-Selch would try to bring Zodiark whole again. So I believe in Endwalker we will LET Zodiark and the Sound come back just so we can defeat the Sound. What is the Sound? I believe it's Chaos, since Elidibus took the form of FF1's Warrior of Light. (this one is not part of the bet. I don't know what form the Sound will take. I'm just guessing it's Chaos).

What about Emet-Selch's revelation in Qitana Ravel? Emet was an unreliable narrator. He THOUGHT Hydaelyn was summoned to shackle Zodiark. The painter of the paintings in the cave was also an unreliable narrator. Y'shtola said "this sanctuary was built to preserve the wisdom of the ancients." The ancients who were part of Zodiark summoners.

https://i.ibb.co/fkhxvxn/Y-shtola.png

What about Fandaniel? For some reason, he wants to die. Since the ancients were immortal, he could not die from old age. There's one way to die though: The Sound. He would love for the Sound to destroy the star so he could die. He either caused the Sound or let the Sound comes, we don't know. All we know is he's on the side of the Sound. He also wanted the rejoining to happen but not to bring back Zodiark. He wanted to bring back the Sound. But now he did not need the rejoinings anymore because for some reason the Sound is coming without the need for further rejoinings. Maybe because Elidibus dies and Zodiark dies with him? I believe Zodiark still has a role to play. Maybe we need Zodiark to be summoned again, if only to keep the Sound in check so we can destroy it.

What about Zenos? I still believe Zenos is Hythlodaeus (this is not part of the bet) and therefore he's on Zodiark's side. Maybe he will become Zodiark's new heart and fight alongside us in the final battle against the Sound. And maybe we will become Hydaelyn's new heart. "My Enemy, My Friend". Zodiark and Hydaelyn are frenemies. Hydaelyn had to sunder Zodiark but they're on the same side against the Sound.

[Katie_Kitty]

Regarding the question of the WoL being tempered or not, it's my belief that Hydaelyn doesn't even have the power to temper. Her command is to "Hear, Feel, Think." That's the opposite of tempering.

[Cleretic]

Incidentally, if we're delving into full-power theorizing, my own theory on this one:

This isn't Venat.

I don't know who it is, but it's in some form an impersonation or a very coincidental mirror; something to play on the fact we immediately think it's Venat rather than dismissing the notion.

Mainly I think this because it's completely unlike Hydaelyn's M.O. so far. Hydaelyn largely keeps to herself unless she absolutely has to, and always appears either in the guise of Minfilia or as a disembodied voice. Venat specifically never did the Elidibus thing of manifesting externally from Hydaelyn (because it's not actually a very good idea). This is at odds with how she's behaved in the entire game thus far.

Whoever this is, it's not Venat, but we're meant to assume it is.

[Yuella]

Oh, I forgot to add Hythlodaeus' account. Hythlodaeus said Hydaelyn was summoned because the dissidents didn't want to sacrifice the new lives. I think he's also an unreliable narrator because he was created by Emet-Selch. Emet thought the dissidents opposed the sacrifice of new lives. This is the stray thought that made Hythlodaeus slightly aware.

[RyuDragnier]

Whoever this is, it's not Venat, but we're meant to assume it is.

Then there's only one person I can think of who it could be. The Dreamer.

[Cleretic]

Oh, I forgot to add Hythlodaeus' account. Hythlodaeus said Hydaelyn was summoned because the dissidents didn't want to sacrifice the new lives. I think he's also an unreliable narrator because he was created by Emet-Selch. Emet thought the dissidents opposed the sacrifice of new lives. This is the stray thought that made Hythlodaeus slightly aware.

Something I will point out about the notion of 'Hythlodaeus said they wanted to protect life, but Venat's crew didn't' is to remember the context where we saw both of those.

Hythlodaeus was directly speaking to us, who he recognized as someone new to the whole environment, and explaining everything we needed to know from his perspective. It's not an omniscient perspective, but it's one we're largely meant to trust as accurate (although personally I don't trust the guy's politics).

We saw Venat's crew from a holographic recording of an internal meeting--and not even the entire meeting. It's actually completely reasonable that they wouldn't have also mentioned the preservation of new life, because everyone in that room was already completely on board. I've been in those sorts of political meetings, and I can tell you right now, the subject of the environment comes up very little in an environmentalist group's internal meetings. Because unless there's new information somehow, everyone's already on the same page. Which holds as a parallel with how we as an audience get the information; we, too, have already been told that Hydaelyn's crew wanted to preserve new life, so it doesn't need to be re-established.