Astrologian changes 6.0

**Cygnia** · 10-17-2021 06:34 PM

Wonder how the Geomancer class quests will be handled now there's no longer a Nocturnal Sect...which I cannot help but feel sad about to an extent, as it felt like a nice way to add depth without button bloat and meant I could match up easy peasy with any other healer. Aside from that painful loss, the changes look fairly decent (though I hope they rethink Malefic and Gravity's potency and bolster it a smidge should the tooltips released be accurate in that regard; right now the gap seems rather severe even accounting for the self buff. 20/30 additional potency goes a long way).

Time to /fistbump white mage and fellow astrologians in DF, while I still can.

P.S Is it possible to use the lower level version of a spell in Explorer dungeons? If not, it'd be neat to have as a minor feature.

**rewd** · 10-17-2021 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by EthanMoonkin

Snip

No, it didn't hurt my feelings as much as it hurt your credibility in a serious discussion, which I believe to be a bigger issue.

I'll have to repeat myself, but hopefully you'll notice how weak and self-centered your arguments are. I'll use quotes to make it easier:

Your ability to do your job properly as an AST with this design is entirely RNG dependent.

You have two huge problems:
- You speak through hyperboles. Your ability to play properly is not entirely RNG dependent, it's barely tied to RNG. I'd dare to say it's not tied to RNG at all.
- You use the wrong words. You are coming from a minmaxing perspective, so "optimally" is the right word to use here. This raises an important question: should minmaxers, a minority within a minority, hold job design hostage?

The whole, if you don't like it, don't play it and just shut up argument is so condescending and dismissive. People ask for changes because they care about their main job. If the changes were for the benefit of all players, there's no reason to silence those players.

You are accusing to be condescending, dismissive and all that because of something you pointed out yourself:

Instead of practicing and improving on a class like AST where I’m destined to fail 50% of the time, I could just play sage whose damage is guaranteed every pull. I will always be benefiting my team to my jobs fullest extent, not barred by pointless coin flips.

To make it worse, you are acting like you care about what is beneficial to every player:

If the changes were for the benefit of all players, there's no reason to silence those players.

Let's see how much you care about other players, shall we?

Just reiterating that the class design is objectively flawed and hope they fix it for the sake of players who want their hard work to be paid off consistently.

You'll excuse my paraphrase: "I care so much about every player that I'll call a job objectively flawed, dismiss some opinions as objectively flawed and, to top it off, I'll ask developers to fix the job to my liking so every player is happy! By the way, by "every player" I mean "me". Everyone wins! Yay!"

People don't like that, and it will cause them to move to other classes.

The horror! That would be fine in a game that lets you play every job on the same character, but FFXIV doesn't work like that. Imagine how awesome that would be: you can play every job on the same character and different jobs offer different gameplay styles based on what the individual likes. It sounds beautiful, damn...

**Liam_Harper** · 10-17-2021 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Payadopa

What I honestly don't get about such statements is that we think of a scenario where nobody screws up. I'm raiding myself and people do screw up or the enemy gets a lucky hit in so it's nice to have it.

In which case RNG decides you get useless Lords for the next 5 minutes and you don't have your Lady to cover the screw up. You can't adjust to that with Minor Arcana, rng said no. You just have to throw Lord at the boss, which does nothing to help the situation. How do you not get that?

Certain posters here are so focused on being anti-min maxer and focusing on dps that they can't see bad design right in front of their face. I've stated myself that I'd be happier if Minor Arcana did no dps at all. For example if Lady was the aoe heal and Lord was a single target heal that could also remove weakness, you could at least adapt by throwing it where it would be of the most use. Nice tool for prog.

But the current Minor Arcana is plain unreliable. But I guess if that lets you continue your agenda against raiders, you don't really care how bad the class feels to play.

**inhaledcorn** · 10-17-2021 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

In which case RNG decides you get useless Lords for the next 5 minutes and you don't have your Lady to cover the screw up. You can't adjust to that with Minor Arcana, rng said no. You just have to throw Lord at the boss, which does nothing to help the situation. How do you not get that?

Certain posters here are so focused on being anti-min maxer and focusing on dps that they can't see bad design right in front of their face. I've stated myself that I'd be happier if Minor Arcana did no dps at all. For example if Lady was the aoe heal and Lord was a single target heal that could also remove weakness, you could at least adapt by throwing it where it would be of the most use. Nice tool for prog.

But the current Minor Arcana is plain unreliable. But I guess if that lets you continue your agenda against raiders, you don't really care how bad the class feels to play.

I was saying Lord should be an AoE heal with Shield and Lady should be an AoE heal with Regen. Still unpredictable, but it might save a Collective or Opposition use.

And, seriously, I don't understand what these people are so angry with raiders. Raiders are generally the ones the developers balance things around since they are the ones who actually understand the game, mainly because they have to. Those who are so anti-min max can't articulate why something is good or bad, they can only break it down to, "Don't change it because I like it."

Guess what? I want Astrodyne and Minor Arcana changed because I don't like it. But, I know why I don't like it: it's a loss of consistency in a game where things are predictable. It's not about gambling, and those who think AST was a gambler doesn't understand a thing about how it has always been played.

**Payadopa** · 10-18-2021 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

In which case RNG decides you get useless Lords for the next 5 minutes and you don't have your Lady to cover the screw up. You can't adjust to that with Minor Arcana, rng said no. You just have to throw Lord at the boss, which does nothing to help the situation. How do you not get that?

Certain posters here are so focused on being anti-min maxer and focusing on dps that they can't see bad design right in front of their face. I've stated myself that I'd be happier if Minor Arcana did no dps at all. For example if Lady was the aoe heal and Lord was a single target heal that could also remove weakness, you could at least adapt by throwing it where it would be of the most use. Nice tool for prog.

But the current Minor Arcana is plain unreliable. But I guess if that lets you continue your agenda against raiders, you don't really care how bad the class feels to play.

Hmm. I actually like the idea of single target and AoE heal. Good idea. And I don't consider RNG mechanics bad game design per se. I like the unpredictability. It's a crutch, sure, but sometimes you just get lucky. Goes with the AST motive nicely. If all healer abilities were RNG I would agree with you, but just one healer out of 4? And only Lord/Lady (and the signs, I guess) are randomised? I don't see the issue, I'm sorry. If anything it brings flavour back into a very stagnant role design. I'll happily play AST in my static. lol

**rewd** · 10-18-2021 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

In which case RNG decides you get useless Lords for the next 5 minutes and you don't have your Lady to cover the screw up. You can't adjust to that with Minor Arcana, rng said no. You just have to throw Lord at the boss, which does nothing to help the situation. How do you not get that?

Certain posters here are so focused on being anti-min maxer and focusing on dps that they can't see bad design right in front of their face. I've stated myself that I'd be happier if Minor Arcana did no dps at all. For example if Lady was the aoe heal and Lord was a single target heal that could also remove weakness, you could at least adapt by throwing it where it would be of the most use. Nice tool for prog.

But the current Minor Arcana is plain unreliable. But I guess if that lets you continue your agenda against raiders, you don't really care how bad the class feels to play.

What certain posters here don't get is that antagonizing people only has the consequence of embarassing yourself and weakining your arguments (which could be weak to begin with). Starting your posts with a "akshually if you have this opinion you surely don't understand the basics of the blablabla" or acting like "agenda against raiders" is a real thing in this thread (seriously, stop grasping at straws), is silly and sad to see.

Also, please, tell me if I got this right. Some people don't like the current system because Lady is a RNG heal and those are unreliable and because Lord is always better, and your suggestion to fix this is to:

- Make Lord a RNG heal, so that instead of having one unreliable tool, we get two
- Make Lord the better card because healers are not missing AoE heals and being able to remove weakness is a very, very powerful buff both in prog and non-prog content (and you are able to hold a potential Lord for the rest of the fight because Lady sucks)
- Make this a completely dead and irrelevant mechanic outside of prog
- Make AST even more powerful and WHM, its direct competitor, even less appealing because just the chance to be able to get a Lord and dispel the weakness debuff, on top of AST being in general just better than WHM, would be enough to strongly prefer one healer over the other

and you are accusing others of being unable to see bad design right in front of their face?

**Sebazy** · 10-18-2021 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by rewd

Also, please, tell me if I got this right. Some people don't like the current system because Lady is a RNG heal and those are unreliable and because Lord is always better, and your suggestion to fix this is to:

RNG heals end up in a strange no mans land where they don't really serve any clear purpose.

Savage raiders will typically distill runs down into a fairly rigid rotation. RNG heals go against this (Thus old Arrow was so divisive). If I'm going to lean on it, it'd better provide enough value to make the potential shift worthwhile. A single oGCD heal frankly doesn't.

In more casual content, what purpose does it really serve? It's window dressing fluff IMHO. I could accidentally unbind it mid pull and it wouldn't change a thing. Our kits are already comically overtuned as it is.

Here's a spicy hot take:

I'd make it grant a missing sign for Astrodyne and switch the card drawn to 1 of 3 50% weaker classic Stormblood era cards depending on which sign it grants.

Let's go with-

15 second 4% Damage Up - Balance for Solar
15 second 4% Crit Up - Spear for Celestial
15 second MP Regen Up - Ewer for Lunar

Obviously the durations and percentages would need to be tuned (probably downwards to ensure it doesn't out value regular cards) but you get the idea. It adds RNG of varying degrees of usefulness but in a way that's open to being gamed if you pay attention to what seals you've already got saved.

All in the name of adding a bit more gameplay depth whilst also helping to make Astrodyne align up with 2 minute raid buffs so it doesn't fall into the same trap PoM did.

**Liam_Harper** · 10-18-2021 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by rewd

and you are accusing others of being unable to see bad design right in front of their face?

I am, yes.

-Removing weakness is powerful, sure, but it's just an example because "single target heal" doesn't sound that exciting. But it could be whatever. I'm not a developer, we're just exploring opinions here.
-Sure, I'm probably being a bit too harsh towards Payadopa, I can admit that. Easy to get carried away when you feel strongly about something.
-Two heals wouldn't be as unreliable because you're always getting a heal.
-I'd rather it was dead outside of prog than frustrating on farm runs where you play perfectly and get rng screwed out of 1000 potency over the fight.
-WHM isn't even a competitor. It needs attention far more than AST to be honest.

**Leonerdo** · 10-18-2021 09:04 AM

Restating my opinion a little bit, cause I don't think I focused on the right thing.

Minor Arcana feels bad because you can't play around it. Both of the effects CAN be good and useful. But it's not fun, because it doesn't depend on the player. You obviously can't plan around it like a normal cooldown, because you don't know what you'll get. More importantly, the ability doesn't even test your ability to adapt, because the effect is so basic:

If you get Lord, great, just use it immediately. Occasionally you might want to hold it for a bit, if there's going to be more targets to hit soon. Adds phases are pretty rare though, so this choice mostly happens at the end of a dungeon boss, where you might want to save it for the trash pull afterwards. If you're not in that situation, it's just a boring damage cooldown that you hit immediately.

If you get Lady, well, now you sit on it and hope that it's useful in the next 60 seconds:
- If you need zero healing (such as if the healing is already covered by your other 3 oGCDs that are stronger), then it's useless and just feels bad that you didn't get Lord.
- If you do need the healing, then Lady just replaces a Helios. Which lets you cast Malefic instead of Helios. That's interesting and a little fun, but it only earns you as much as a Lord (250 potency), which doesn't feel right.
- The best case, in extremely rare situations, you might need more healing IMMEDIATELY that your normal toolkit isn't enough to cover, and Lady could save the day. But again, those situations are out of your hands. You can't plan for it. Sometimes Lady of Crowns is literally your trick card up your sleeve to turn everything around... or you just die because it was a Lord.

To sum up, Lord is a boring damage cooldown 80% of the time. Lady is useless 70% of the time, mildly useful but still disappointing 25% of the time, and saves your bacon 5% of the time. Maybe my estimates are off, but that means the ability is only interesting 25% of the time on average, and actively disappointing at least 35% of the time. AND you have nearly zero agency around those possibilities because it's RNG. So overall it adds more frustration to AST than fun. AST would be better off with nothing in that ability slot, assuming the power budget was moved to other abilities.

(Anticipating a possible counter point: Of course every oGCD heal on every healer is also "useless" if it doesn't get used. Those aren't disappointing though, because you just let them sit and don't think about it. But when Lady of Crowns is wasted you have to actively throw it away to draw a new Arcana. And at that moment you'll regret that it wasn't Lord instead. This is exactly the reason that Energy Drain was given back to SCH in 5.05. Because SCH mains felt the loss of potential value from unspent Aetherflow stacks, every time they hit the button to refresh it.)

Edit: It's kinda similar to the woes that DRK mains are feeling right now. They got mostly straigtforward oGCD abilities that did nothing new and didn't interact with other parts of their kit. The new abilities are okay, but they already have several abilities that do the same. Minor Arcana is like that, but also has RNG that you can't adapt to half the time.

**rewd** · 10-18-2021 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I'm not a developer, we're just exploring opinions here.

Indeed, which is why I'd rather we all think twice and avoid personal attacks, which just make the discussion pretty obnoxious overall. Moving on:

- Two heals (or 3, or 4, or...) are still unreliable because they are RNG and mess up with your healing plan (which every good healers has). This is actually something I agree with. ST and AoE heals might be more manageable RNG, but still rather superfluous.

-I'd rather it was dead outside of prog than frustrating on farm runs where you play perfectly and get rng screwed out of 1000 potency over the fight.

You see, this is the whole point of the discussion, really. I, on the other hand, love the thought of it. Not only in farm parties, but dungeons, savage progs, alliance raids...
I prefer the "different strokes for different folks" approach, rather than "I prefer this way and you are objectively wrong if you think otherwise" approach.

I wouldn't mind making Lady more appealing because an AoE heal on a healer that isn't really lacking in that department is not that great, but God, I would be lying if I said Astrodyne and Minor Arcana didn't make me feel excited to play AST again.

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