Astrologian changes 6.0

**rewd** · 10-17-2021 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by EthanMoonkin

Snip

No, it didn't hurt my feelings as much as it hurt your credibility in a serious discussion, which I believe to be a bigger issue.

I'll have to repeat myself, but hopefully you'll notice how weak and self-centered your arguments are. I'll use quotes to make it easier:

Your ability to do your job properly as an AST with this design is entirely RNG dependent.

You have two huge problems:
- You speak through hyperboles. Your ability to play properly is not entirely RNG dependent, it's barely tied to RNG. I'd dare to say it's not tied to RNG at all.
- You use the wrong words. You are coming from a minmaxing perspective, so "optimally" is the right word to use here. This raises an important question: should minmaxers, a minority within a minority, hold job design hostage?

The whole, if you don't like it, don't play it and just shut up argument is so condescending and dismissive. People ask for changes because they care about their main job. If the changes were for the benefit of all players, there's no reason to silence those players.

You are accusing to be condescending, dismissive and all that because of something you pointed out yourself:

Instead of practicing and improving on a class like AST where I’m destined to fail 50% of the time, I could just play sage whose damage is guaranteed every pull. I will always be benefiting my team to my jobs fullest extent, not barred by pointless coin flips.

To make it worse, you are acting like you care about what is beneficial to every player:

If the changes were for the benefit of all players, there's no reason to silence those players.

Let's see how much you care about other players, shall we?

Just reiterating that the class design is objectively flawed and hope they fix it for the sake of players who want their hard work to be paid off consistently.

You'll excuse my paraphrase: "I care so much about every player that I'll call a job objectively flawed, dismiss some opinions as objectively flawed and, to top it off, I'll ask developers to fix the job to my liking so every player is happy! By the way, by "every player" I mean "me". Everyone wins! Yay!"

People don't like that, and it will cause them to move to other classes.

The horror! That would be fine in a game that lets you play every job on the same character, but FFXIV doesn't work like that. Imagine how awesome that would be: you can play every job on the same character and different jobs offer different gameplay styles based on what the individual likes. It sounds beautiful, damn...

**EthanMoonkin** · 10-19-2021 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by rewd

No, it didn't hurt my feelings as much as it hurt your credibility in a serious discussion, which I believe to be a bigger issue.

I'll have to repeat myself, but hopefully you'll notice how weak and self-centered your arguments are. I'll use quotes to make it easier:

You have two huge problems:
- You speak through hyperboles. Your ability to play properly is not entirely RNG dependent, it's barely tied to RNG. I'd dare to say it's not tied to RNG at all.
- You use the wrong words. You are coming from a minmaxing perspective, so "optimally" is the right word to use here. This raises an important question: should minmaxers, a minority within a minority, hold job design hostage?

You are accusing to be condescending, dismissive and all that because of something you pointed out yourself:

To make it worse, you are acting like you care about what is beneficial to every player:

Let's see how much you care about other players, shall we?

You'll excuse my paraphrase: "I care so much about every player that I'll call a job objectively flawed, dismiss some opinions as objectively flawed and, to top it off, I'll ask developers to fix the job to my liking so every player is happy! By the way, by "every player" I mean "me". Everyone wins! Yay!"

The horror! That would be fine in a game that lets you play every job on the same character, but FFXIV doesn't work like that. Imagine how awesome that would be: you can play every job on the same character and different jobs offer different gameplay styles based on what the individual likes. It sounds beautiful, damn...

Alright, you’re literally just gaslighting me and providing no points of discussion at hand which is the AST changes. There’s no further reason to waste my time responding to you. Good day!

**Payadopa** · 10-17-2021 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Leonerdo

Man, I really love AST's current design. It has unique and powerful tools, it's the right amount of busy, and the RNG is manageable. But the EW changes just make it too RNG for my taste. I'll play it for Normal raids, but the RNG is just terrible for Savage where I want to plan everything out. And of course parsing with it is just about fishing for one run with good card draws... Almost as bad as dancer RNG.

Everytime I get a Lady of Crowns in the opener (100% useless when all my other cooldowns are available), I'm not gonna wipe and reset of course, but I'll be immensely disappointed.

It's ironic considering how cool AST looked in the job trailer and how bland SCH looked, but I think I'd rather play around with SCH's new speedboost than deal with AST cards now.

I'm not the type to complain usually, but I can't see the silver lining in this particular case. And supposedly the devs listen on the forums sometimes. Figured I would throw in my 2 cents.

So in the end it comes down to 'my number will be a bit smaller = sad'. I think parsing can have a place but if it gets into your head so much (no offense

) then you should take a step back. It's totally fine to not like a job. I don't like SCH, so I don't play it. They are all still viable.

**Cygnia** · 10-17-2021 06:34 PM

Wonder how the Geomancer class quests will be handled now there's no longer a Nocturnal Sect...which I cannot help but feel sad about to an extent, as it felt like a nice way to add depth without button bloat and meant I could match up easy peasy with any other healer. Aside from that painful loss, the changes look fairly decent (though I hope they rethink Malefic and Gravity's potency and bolster it a smidge should the tooltips released be accurate in that regard; right now the gap seems rather severe even accounting for the self buff. 20/30 additional potency goes a long way).

Time to /fistbump white mage and fellow astrologians in DF, while I still can.

P.S Is it possible to use the lower level version of a spell in Explorer dungeons? If not, it'd be neat to have as a minor feature.

**Payadopa** · 10-18-2021 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

In which case RNG decides you get useless Lords for the next 5 minutes and you don't have your Lady to cover the screw up. You can't adjust to that with Minor Arcana, rng said no. You just have to throw Lord at the boss, which does nothing to help the situation. How do you not get that?

Certain posters here are so focused on being anti-min maxer and focusing on dps that they can't see bad design right in front of their face. I've stated myself that I'd be happier if Minor Arcana did no dps at all. For example if Lady was the aoe heal and Lord was a single target heal that could also remove weakness, you could at least adapt by throwing it where it would be of the most use. Nice tool for prog.

But the current Minor Arcana is plain unreliable. But I guess if that lets you continue your agenda against raiders, you don't really care how bad the class feels to play.

Hmm. I actually like the idea of single target and AoE heal. Good idea. And I don't consider RNG mechanics bad game design per se. I like the unpredictability. It's a crutch, sure, but sometimes you just get lucky. Goes with the AST motive nicely. If all healer abilities were RNG I would agree with you, but just one healer out of 4? And only Lord/Lady (and the signs, I guess) are randomised? I don't see the issue, I'm sorry. If anything it brings flavour back into a very stagnant role design. I'll happily play AST in my static. lol

**Leonerdo** · 10-18-2021 09:04 AM

Restating my opinion a little bit, cause I don't think I focused on the right thing.

Minor Arcana feels bad because you can't play around it. Both of the effects CAN be good and useful. But it's not fun, because it doesn't depend on the player. You obviously can't plan around it like a normal cooldown, because you don't know what you'll get. More importantly, the ability doesn't even test your ability to adapt, because the effect is so basic:

If you get Lord, great, just use it immediately. Occasionally you might want to hold it for a bit, if there's going to be more targets to hit soon. Adds phases are pretty rare though, so this choice mostly happens at the end of a dungeon boss, where you might want to save it for the trash pull afterwards. If you're not in that situation, it's just a boring damage cooldown that you hit immediately.

If you get Lady, well, now you sit on it and hope that it's useful in the next 60 seconds:
- If you need zero healing (such as if the healing is already covered by your other 3 oGCDs that are stronger), then it's useless and just feels bad that you didn't get Lord.
- If you do need the healing, then Lady just replaces a Helios. Which lets you cast Malefic instead of Helios. That's interesting and a little fun, but it only earns you as much as a Lord (250 potency), which doesn't feel right.
- The best case, in extremely rare situations, you might need more healing IMMEDIATELY that your normal toolkit isn't enough to cover, and Lady could save the day. But again, those situations are out of your hands. You can't plan for it. Sometimes Lady of Crowns is literally your trick card up your sleeve to turn everything around... or you just die because it was a Lord.

To sum up, Lord is a boring damage cooldown 80% of the time. Lady is useless 70% of the time, mildly useful but still disappointing 25% of the time, and saves your bacon 5% of the time. Maybe my estimates are off, but that means the ability is only interesting 25% of the time on average, and actively disappointing at least 35% of the time. AND you have nearly zero agency around those possibilities because it's RNG. So overall it adds more frustration to AST than fun. AST would be better off with nothing in that ability slot, assuming the power budget was moved to other abilities.

(Anticipating a possible counter point: Of course every oGCD heal on every healer is also "useless" if it doesn't get used. Those aren't disappointing though, because you just let them sit and don't think about it. But when Lady of Crowns is wasted you have to actively throw it away to draw a new Arcana. And at that moment you'll regret that it wasn't Lord instead. This is exactly the reason that Energy Drain was given back to SCH in 5.05. Because SCH mains felt the loss of potential value from unspent Aetherflow stacks, every time they hit the button to refresh it.)

Edit: It's kinda similar to the woes that DRK mains are feeling right now. They got mostly straigtforward oGCD abilities that did nothing new and didn't interact with other parts of their kit. The new abilities are okay, but they already have several abilities that do the same. Minor Arcana is like that, but also has RNG that you can't adapt to half the time.

**Yhisa** · 10-19-2021 04:32 AM

In all fairness I think astrologian and scholar will both get nerfed in endwalker, due to the sheer amount of utility they both have that's it's legit insane and bonkers that this went ahead

The problem is the community we all know that AST / SCH will most likely be the new "meta" base on the sheer about of buffs they give out to the group, when u compare this to white mage and sage....they get stomped HARD

For me I'm just going to play white mage, cause I smell a heavy nerf to scholar + astrologian, yeah people will play "sage" cause it's new, but it doesn't really offer anything to the party apart from damage reduction only and a shield.....where scholar is like ....jacked up......so is astrologian is jacked up

**Aword3213** · 10-19-2021 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by Yhisa

In all fairness I think astrologian and scholar will both get nerfed in endwalker, due to the sheer amount of utility they both have that's it's legit insane and bonkers that this went ahead

The problem is the community we all know that AST / SCH will most likely be the new "meta" base on the sheer about of buffs they give out to the group, when u compare this to white mage and sage....they get stomped HARD

For me I'm just going to play white mage, cause I smell a heavy nerf to scholar + astrologian, yeah people will play "sage" cause it's new, but it doesn't really offer anything to the party apart from damage reduction only and a shield.....where scholar is like ....jacked up......so is astrologian is jacked up

how...how about buffing WHM instead?

**Rein_eon_Osborne** · 10-19-2021 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by Aword3213

how...how about buffing WHM instead?

You mean adding more heal buttons for WHM? Because that's what seems the devs view about WHM: it has to remain simple and thus devoid of capability comparable to their more complex siblings.

**Acece** · 10-19-2021 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Aword3213

how...how about buffing WHM instead?

Whm has a fundamental problem with its kit compared to ast, they're pretty much the only healer that loses damage for healing properly. They also have the least amount of healing tools compared to other healers, their 3 ogcd heals, assize asylum and tetra are ok but it's nothing like ast ogcd where they pretty much 3 star pot every 60 sec. They're going to need to do a lot of work on whm.

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