Regular Crafting, Expert Recipes and Resplendent Tools, thoughts after hiatus.

[Mithrahn]

tldr; I can't tldr.

(This will be a two part post since I hit the forum character limit.)

Firstly, I know I am very late to the expert recipes, firmament and resplendent tools party, but I just came back after a 4 year break where I quit near the end of Heavensward, because I didn't like the direction crafting was going in, how back then to me, crafting felt like the unwanted child.

So, I came back some 2-ish months ago during the "Asmongold wave" with some friends who wanted to give the game a try, made my Skybuilder's Relic last month, tried a few skyward score expert crafts, and finished making my first Resplendent Tool yesterday, and now feel I have enough of a grasp on how much crafting has changed to talk about it.

Regular crafting is more accessible now, and if it was me from 4 years ago, I'd be up in arms about it, but I had fun teaching my friends to craft, and they had fun doing their first level 70+ crafts with a little guidance, and I believe the increased accessibility is a good thing, though I'd be lying if I said I didn't miss stuff like Steady Hands, Ingenuity, the budget-Byregot's that I forgot the name of and the original specialist actions.
Though the accessibility was increased, I have to say crafting at low levels just feels... bad, because of the trim - which admittedly is a problem combat classes face too, to be honest - the only difference is we don't get a level sync so once we get past the level threshold we won't be stuck with the lack of skills.

When Zhloe Aliapoh first released, I wasn't happy about the "budget Khloe Aliapoh's Wondrous Tails" we got. I felt like Zhloe's Custom Deliveries was just a lazy way of giving Disciples of Land and Hand a "Khloe Aliapoh's Wondrous Tails" content. Now, I still wish it could've been more, but I'm rather content with the expanded storylines we get from the 7 custom deliveries we have right now at time of writing.

I liked making my (first) Skybuilder's Relic. I enjoyed it, I don't mind doing it again.
I think Ishgardian Restoration expert recipes were decent too, I'll be slowly working towards more of it in the near future.
But Resplendent Tools crafting, this highlighted the flaws of expert recipes to me that weren't immediately noticeable when doing my Skybuilder's Relic.
The difference between Expert Recipes before Resplendent and Resplendent Tool Expert Recipes, is:
Skybuilders', Skyward Score and Regular Expert Recipes: Impossible to fail without RNG.
Resplendent Tool Recipes: Impossible to succeed without RNG.

[Mithrahn]

So, about Expert Crafting, I want to say I feel that expert conditionals is the right idea, but implemented badly. I like the Pliant, Sturdy, Malleable, Centered, Primed conditions in addition to the Good condition, but why do we still keep Neutral(Normal) Conditions in expert crafting, and actually require not getting a normal proc to be able to even have a chance at min collectability rating for resplendent material crafts, and/or to even have a chance at max collectability rating for other expert crafts?

If it's going to be made impossible to get min rating on an expert recipe(resplendent tool crafting) with 10-20 steps of subsequent Normal conditions [aka "Neutral" RNG, or in this case, it's more of "Bad" RNG], if it's actually required to have expert conditionals proc to succeed at the craft, either one of four things need to happen in my opinion:

1. Normal Conditions shouldn't exist in Expert crafts. Every step should be randomed between one of the available expert procs. This would "test the crafter's skill" more than some bad RNG streak like 10 subsequent steps of normals with no procs.

or

2. Give us ways to control the conditionals/RNG. Maybe skills or traits that force conditionals to proc.

or

3. Give us "future sight", either as a built in feature or an ability, to view a whole list that predicts what conditions will happen for the next X number of steps so we can actually plan our moves for each individual craft.

or

4. Just don't make non-normal procs a requirement for a successful expert recipe craft.


Hard, challenging crafts isn't the problem, not everyone has to do it. RNG isn't the (direct) problem. The problem is an almost over reliance on an almost uncontrollable RNG for challenge.


Disclaimer: These are my opinions and mine only, others may share some or all of my opinions but whether you agree, disagree or agree to disagree, know that I do not presume to speak for everyone and only speak for myself. Also, recently I have the habit of posting something to forums/social media and not checking back and/or responding to subsequent replies for weeks or months on end, so forgive me in advance if I disappear and never respond.

I will be paying attention to the next live letter in November to see what plans they have in store for us with crafting and gathering.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

I liked making my (first) Skybuilder's Relic. I enjoyed it, I don't mind doing it again.
I think Ishgardian Restoration expert recipes were decent too, I'll be slowly working towards more of it in the near future.
But Resplendent Tools crafting, this highlighted the flaws of expert recipes to me that weren't immediately noticeable when doing my Skybuilder's Relic.
The difference between Expert Recipes before Resplendent and Resplendent Tool Expert Recipes, is:
Skybuilders', Skyward Score and Regular Expert Recipes: Impossible to fail without RNG.
Resplendent Tool Recipes: Impossible to succeed without RNG.

Skybuilders' Expert Recipes:
~10K Difficulty & 76939 quality (but only need 65000 quality), 60 durab. With Centered.

Restoration(4) Expert Recipes (Ishgardian Restoration Expert Recipes):
12,046 Difficulty & 81,477 Quality, 55 durab. No Centered, but with Malleable and Primed.

Resplendent Expert Recipes A:
12,089 Difficulty & 75,378 Quality, 55 durab. With Centered.

Resplendent Expert Recipes B:
12,132 Difficulty & 78,180 Quality, 55 durab. No Centered, but with Malleable and Primed.

Resplendent Expert Recipes C:
13,024 Difficulty & 85,033 Quality, 60 durab. With ALL conditions, including Centered, Malleable and Primed.

In my opinion, the hardest one is actually Restoration(4) Expert Recipes. So I am not sure why you labeled Resplendent Recipes alone as "Impossible to succeed without RNG". Although Resplendent Recipes C has more difficulty and quality to fill, it has 60 durab and all the conditions, including Centered. Whenever we have Centered, then Patient Touch can be utilized, and so it's a lot easier. Sure, this is dependent on RNG. But so are the Restoration(4) recipes then. If you're going to label Resplendent recipes that way, you might as well label the Restoration(4) recipes as well.

Anyway, RNG is RNG. We always fail some. But the overall fail rate isn't that high. I usually fail 1/10 times or less for any of these Expert Recipes. At worst failing 2/10 times. Imo it isn't so bad. Are you failing more than this %?

[Mithrahn]

Skybuilders' Expert Recipes:
~10K Difficulty & 76939 quality (but only need 65000 quality), 60 durab. With Centered.

Restoration(4) Expert Recipes (Ishgardian Restoration Expert Recipes):
12,046 Difficulty & 81,477 Quality, 55 durab. No Centered, but with Malleable and Primed.

Resplendent Expert Recipes A:
12,089 Difficulty & 75,378 Quality, 55 durab. With Centered.

Resplendent Expert Recipes B:
12,132 Difficulty & 78,180 Quality, 55 durab. No Centered, but with Malleable and Primed.

Resplendent Expert Recipes C:
13,024 Difficulty & 85,033 Quality, 60 durab. With ALL conditions, including Centered, Malleable and Primed.

In my opinion, the hardest one is actually Restoration(4) Expert Recipes. So I am not sure why you labeled Resplendent Recipes alone as "Impossible to succeed without RNG". Although Resplendent Recipes C has more difficulty and quality to fill, it has 60 durab and all the conditions, including Centered. Whenever we have Centered, then Patient Touch can be utilized, and so it's a lot easier. Sure, this is dependent on RNG. But so are the Restoration(4) recipes then. If you're going to label Resplendent recipes that way, you might as well label the Restoration(4) recipes as well.

Anyway, RNG is RNG. We always fail some. But the overall fail rate isn't that high. I usually fail 1/10 times or less for any of these Expert Recipes. At worst failing 2/10 times. Imo it isn't so bad. Are you failing more than this %?

Restoration 4
Difficulty: 12046
Quality: 81477
Min: 5800-6499
Med: 6500-7399
Max: 7400+

Resplendent A
Difficulty: 12089
Quality: 75378
Min: 6300-7499
Max: 7500+

Resplendent B
Difficulty: 12132
Quality: 78180
Min: 6500-7799
Max: 7800+

Resplendent C
Difficulty: 13024
Quality: 85033
Min: 7000-8499
Max: 8500+

I almost never fail any recipe pre Resplendent, it's always possible to get Min Rating when RNG hates you, but Resplendent can be a flip of a coin, or outright impossible when RNG hates you.
I am not surprised that you don't fail any expert recipe, most of them are easy enough, but I understand that you're waiting for level 90 before tackling Resplendent Tools, so you're missing the full picture.
I do agree that Resplendent C is a lot easier than A and B though.

Edit: To clarify, the problem isn't difficulty, don't laser focus on my "categorization", the problem(?) is Expert Crafting can still be refined, and I have suggested possible improvements, I'm not expecting any of them to be done and I'm not expecting many to agree with my opinions, but feedback is feedback and if anyone would like to point me to a better venue to send direct feedback, I'd be happy to send mine that way.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

but I understand that you're waiting for level 90 before tackling Resplendent Tools, so you're missing the full picture.
I do agree that Resplendent C is a lot easier than A and B though.

You're right that I'm waiting for lvl 90 to tackle all the Resplendent Tools, but I did finish 1 Resplendent Tool though. So I thought I have a pretty good feeling of how it goes.

Anyway, I was mostly saying Restoration 4 is actually harder than, or as hard as, any of the Resplendent recipes.

Edit: To clarify, the problem isn't difficulty, don't laser focus on my "categorization", the problem(?) is Expert Crafting can still be refined, and I have suggested possible improvements, I'm not expecting any of them to be done and I'm not expecting many to agree with my opinions, but feedback is feedback and if anyone would like to point me to a better venue to send direct feedback, I'd be happy to send mine that way.

This can be an interesting idea. An expert recipe without normal condition can be a fun thing to have!

[Jojoya]

Removing Normal as a condition would make recipes even easier than they currently are. Currently any useless condition (think Malleable once you've got progress to one synthesis short of completion) effectively is a Normal condition because there are no detrimental effects attached.

Should SE either add in detrimental conditions or detrimental secondary effects to existing conditions to compensate?

[Mithrahn]

Adding detrimental conditions in exchange for removing normal would be counterproductive, but the part about adding detrimental secondary effects instead might be a good compromise, something like:

(The following examples are just random ideas pulled out of my ass, for purpose of examples and clarification)
Sturdy halves Durability cost as the beneficial effect, but reduce the duration of buffs applied during sturdy by X turns? [like an anti-Primed]
Pliant halves CP cost but reduces the effectiveness of Synthesis and/or Touch actions by certain %?
etc.

Alternatively, they could scale the recipe requirements even higher to compensate for the removal of normal conditions instead of adding secondary effects, or they could do both.

Edit: After thinking about it more for a while, for the addition of detrimental conditions, they could probably do it like how a Poor is always after an Excellent. Have some detrimental conditions tied to occuring after some or all beneficial ones, but I feel like that might end up a headache since then the craft would become Beneficial Condition > Detrimental Condition > Beneficial > Detrimental.