2d elemental depiction flawed

[GoldStarz]

Moreover, the 2 of the 3 Astral/Light related magic are used by BLACK mages and vice versa. That Blackmage based magic isn't all Umbral and White mage all Astral is mind boggling to me.

I mean, isn't that intentionally to avoid repeating the mistakes Mhach and Amdapor which kinda super fucked over the world?

[kaynide]

I mean, isn't that intentionally to avoid repeating the mistakes Mhach and Amdapor which kinda super fucked over the world?

I’m not talking about how it’s organized according to in game lore, but how the devs decided to organize it outside of the game.

[GoldStarz]

I’m not talking about how it’s organized according to in game lore, but how the devs decided to organize it outside of the game.

I mean umbral and astral aspects don't really exist outside of 14 afaik?

[kaynide]

I mean umbral and astral aspects don't really exist outside of 14 afaik?

No we are talking in FFXIV, but I’m talking a human on earth decided how to organize them before the lore was even written, and that said human decided that BLM two thirds of spells would not be Umbral despite the name clearly meaning dark or “black” magic.

As in “I’m gonna design a class called Black Mage, but the magic they use is actually White mostly” when the dev could have designed it however they wanted because they are literally creating the lore.

[Iscah]

No we are talking in FFXIV, but I’m talking a human on earth decided how to organize them before the lore was even written, and that said human decided that BLM two thirds of spells would not be Umbral despite the name clearly meaning dark or “black” magic.

Except that "umbral" observably does not "clearly mean black magic" within the story, so nobody made the decision to give black mages "white magic". Inversely, by deciding to give black mages those elements, they made it a fact that astral and umbral are not the same thing as white and black magic. Whether that was a good idea or not, it's canon now.

Additionally, all six elements can have an astral or umbral charge to them, so the grouping seems somewhat arbitrary in any case.

From what I've read in the past, apparently 1.0 approached it differently anyway, with thaumaturges being focused on astral and umbral magicks and conjurers having power over all six elements, but that got reshaped into our current simplified pathway from class to job.

[Brandedblade]

Nether elements below ground... Dirt/Earth > Molten Rock / Lava = Heat = Fire = what were those aetherologists smoking? They're on a planet with active volcanoes T_T! Ice is nowhere down there, being most common at the tops of mountains / when the sun/light is farther away.

This is where the fact the elements are Astrally and Umbrally aligned come into play. You could argue that a flickering flame or wildfires are the astrally charged aspect of Fire, whereas magma could be argued as an umbrally aligned version of fire.

[Brandedblade]

Moreover, the 2 of the 3 Astral/Light related magic are used by BLACK mages and vice versa. That Blackmage based magic isn't all Umbral and White mage all Astral is mind boggling to me.

Black Mages use two Astrally Aligned Elements (Fire, Lightning) and one Umbrally Aligned Element (Ice). And Shadowbringers essentially stated Darkness is the force that leans things towards an astral alignment. Hence Black Mages use spells like Foul and Xenoglossy imply that its a pure burst of Astrally aligned magic. Hence with speculation, Black Magic adds activity and chaos to their magics, making them incredibly destructive.

White Mages use two Umbrally Aligned Elements (Earth, Water) and one Astrally Aligned elements (Air). Shadowbringers stated Light is the force that draws things umbrally, hence why once white mages get to the point of power that their spells loose their elemental aspect. they become "Light". If you want to go into massively speculative territory. This is the reason why White Magic heals and Holy Stuns, its bringing order and stasis to a body's aether.

[kaynide]

Black Mages use two Astrally Aligned Elements (Fire, Lightning) and one Umbrally Aligned Element (Ice). And Shadowbringers essentially stated Darkness is the force that leans things towards an astral alignment. Hence Black Mages use spells like Foul and Xenoglossy imply that its a pure burst of Astrally aligned magic. Hence with speculation, Black Magic adds activity and chaos to their magics, making them incredibly destructive.

White Mages use two Umbrally Aligned Elements (Earth, Water) and one Astrally Aligned elements (Air). Shadowbringers stated Light is the force that draws things umbrally, hence why once white mages get to the point of power that their spells loose their elemental aspect. they become "Light". If you want to go into massively speculative territory. This is the reason why White Magic heals and Holy Stuns, its bringing order and stasis to a body's aether.

I would just chalk that up to the system being not as well thought out as I'd have like. "Umbra" literally means darkness. To say a WHM is based on a job that uses "Darkness magic that is technically actually light, or eventually evolves into light" feels weak for me.

..I think it's more that they had Conjurer from 1.0, and the devs wanted to make it WHM... they just wrapped whatever lore they needed to make the shift from elemental spells to light based.

I don't blame the devs as they had to work with what they had- just the original concept doesn't work well for me.

[Iscah]

I would just chalk that up to the system being not as well thought out as I'd have like. "Umbra" literally means darkness. To say a WHM is based on a job that uses "Darkness magic that is technically actually light, or eventually evolves into light" feels weak for me.

Astral and umbral are ultimately just fancy labels stuck on active and passive forces, and not actually part of the elemental wheel at all.

Also, "white magic" and "black magic" have never strictly been about using light-themed and dark-themed magic, but healing and harming. Fire and lightning are traditional black mage spells throughout the FF series but both are essentially bright lights, not darkness.

[kaynide]

Astral and umbral are ultimately just fancy labels stuck on active and passive forces, and not actually part of the elemental wheel at all.

Also, "white magic" and "black magic" have never strictly been about using light-themed and dark-themed magic, but healing and harming. Fire and lightning are traditional black mage spells throughout the FF series but both are essentially bright lights, not darkness.

That's just more lore-wrapping imho. You can make up whatever lore you want to match what you want it to be sense-be-damned.

Like, Wind and Water are incredibly active forces. Thermal dynamics (Ice/Fire, essentially) are active. Lightning of course is active. Even the very earth is an active force with earthquakes and pressure.

Even going "Healing and Harming"- Sure, water is a basic healing/soothing material..but it is also incredibly dangerous, with disease and whatnot; if anything else, Pure Water would represent balance. Similarly, Fire can be both healing and harming (Cauterizes wounds, purifies water).

I know it is what it is, and "Their house their rules/their lore", I'm just critiquing it.

Even then, the spells have a long and weird history- Aero for example bounces regularly between Blue Mage, Black Mage and very rarely White Mage.

Me? I would have just said there are 6 elements that are harnessed for magic. Black Mages, for reasons unrelated to dark or light or labeling or whatever, is focused on using Fire, Ice and Lightning. Not because they are dark or light or forces of nature..but because the guy who founded Black Mage School back in the day decided those were the spells used. Or those were the magic forms they personally mastered and could pass on.

I probably would have reworked Aero/stone and Water to be some kind of black mage buff and simply had conjurer also using all 6 elements in different, curative ways…eventually becoming more pure “light” as they become WHM.

This difference in how to use the elements ties in nicely with the cause of their War of the Magi; perhaps Black Mages using all 6 in an “umbral” way, with White using in an “astral” way…

..but that’s just me, and I’m not an expert storyteller..so I trust the devs to do what they can, even if I don’t really like it.