Preferences for a new world in 6.x, 7.x and beyond

[Cleretic]

There's no way in hell anyone's ever summoning anything on the scale of Zodiark or Hydaelyn again, with the world the way it is

Zodiark is a definite no, that required half the population of the unsundered planet. Hydaelyn, though... that depends on how big Venat's crew was. We don't yet know that, only that they were much smaller.

It wouldn't be a small deal to make another Hydaelyn, but it's theoretically plausible.

While they could continue to use "Allagans did it" as a catalyst for problems going into the future, it's already been kind of done to death in both MSQ and side content.

It's seeming like there may still be remnants of Ancient civilization back on the Source which could be even more of an issue, however.

Remember that there's a stated reason the Source doesn't have any known Ancient buildings (at least, that we're aware of); it's gone through a huge amount of apocalyptic, world-rending disasters, which eventually tear down even the pretty sturdy Ancient architecture. Consider Amaurot itself, off the coast of Vylbrand; in the First it had to take the End of Days, the Sundering (if that did any damage) and then eons underwater, while in the Source it's had to deal with all that, plus seven apocalypse-level events.

That's not to say we can't go to more Ancient buildings (even if I don't personally want to), but rather that any reasoning for getting us there has to be a little smarter than 'we just find them somewhere'.

[Veloran]

A lot of the story going forward is dependent on how 6.0 ends. Whether there's a timeskip, a shunting of WoL off into another shard, it's unknown. But we are supposedly leaving most of the old cast behind after Endwalker, so that should be kept in mind. However, as far as theorization goes, I think people are far off base when saying that the threat of the primals will be over in 7.0. Just the opposite, I'm fairly sure that they're set up to be a much worse threat after Endwalker.

As to why? Let's just look at what's been set up and what little we know about the story post-6.0. In the EW prepatches we discover the cure to tempering and bring the various Beast Tribes into the Eorzean alliance - On the face of it this sounds like an attempt to put the issue of the primals to bed, but I would put forward that this has been done because the issue of the primals will be badly exacerbated in the future, and so it's no longer possible to just have the Beast Tribes summoning random primals across Eorzea based on solvable grudges with the city-states.
Just consider the two side questlines we know of after 6.0, Pandemonium and Myths of the Realm. If Pandemonium is similar at all to FF2 which it's referencing, it should presumably have to do with some realm of "hell". This is of course quite strange in the context of XIV's Lifestream-based reincarnation cosmology. And then we have Myths of the Realm, dealing with the Twelve and, notably, whatever lies underneath Silvertear Lake.

For what this means, we need to think about the nature of primals, their origins, and what we actually saw during the 1.0 cinematic. As we well know, primals are constructs born from faith and prayer, only one can exist of a given diety at a time, they must feed upon aether to sustain a physical form, and when they're defeated their essence returns to the aetherial sea to reside there until it's summoned again. However with what we now know about the nature of summoning magic - That it is in fact a primitive version of Amaurotine creation magic - Their entire existence becomes quite confusing and questionable. For example, why can only one incarnation of a primal exist at a given time? Creation magic allowed the Amaurotines to create as many copies of a concept as they wished. Why do the essences of the primals return to the Lifestream upon their physical dissolution? No such thing was the case with Ancient concepts. And why must primals feed upon aether in order to sustain themselves? Again no such thing was true in the time before the sundering, while Zodiark needed huge sacrifices in order to preform his reality-altering acts we hear nothing about more sacrifices being necessary to maintain his existence, and Hydaelyn has been weakening for 12,000 years but seemingly not just because of her nature as a primal. Moreover, the inclusion that modern deities seem to be based on specific Ancient concepts, such as Ifrita to Ifrit, or Amaurot's Phoenix to Louisoix' Phoenix, further complicates the issue.

And then, the question of the 1.0 cinematic. There, we see what appears to be the essences of the primals being freed from Silvertear by the massive Ceruleum explosion of the Agrius. How and why could this be the case? Well, it seems to me that the concepts of the primals were effectively being locked away there by Hydaelyn, and when the seal was cracked they were released, to be freely drawn upon for summoning once again. As an aside to this, Lahabrea's entire thing in the Ancient world was experimental concepts, and his plans throughout 1.0 and 2.0 hinged on the summoning of primals, so it seems likely he was quite involved with all of this. It also seems his primary goal was the enervation of Hydaelyn, which brings me to a few conclusions and postulations about all of this.

1. What lay beneath Silvertear was effectively a prison for Amaurotine concepts, to prevent their modern usage for summoning.
2. Hydaelyn was responsible for being the force that draws the essence of the primals back into the Lifestream, in which resides that prison, after the destruction of their physical forms. I would further speculate that this is why the primals need a constant influx of aether to maintain themselves, because the pull of the Lifestream is so strong that they need a huge amount of energy to sustain themselves.
3. Lahabrea's intense Primal-summoning routine was intended to drain Hydaelyn of aether, through both the summonings draining the aether of the land and through their defeats forcing them to be drawn away again.

For the moment, let us assume this is the case to at least some degree. At the very least, we can see that Hydaelyn is in part responsible for trying to tamp down on the possibility of summonings. And I would suggest that this is an ongoing and constantly draining process for her, which would strongly explain the massive explosion of summonings, and hugely increased ease of summonings, after Hydaelyn's expenditure of her power during the finale of 2.0. Compared to a few decades ago we went from primal summonings being unheard of to individual people being capable of it if they're supplied with aether. Therefore, what would happen if the outcome of Endwalker is as it seems, and for one reason or another Hydaelyn is destroyed?

If it is the case that she is the one pulling primals back to the Lifestream and forcing their constant consumption of aether merely to exist, would it not therefore be the case that in a post-Hydaelyn world, primals would be able to exist indefinitely, growing only more powerful as they sup upon faith and aether, and the only way to destroy them would be to shatter their essence or otherwise contain it somehow? If this should happen, then the threat that primals pose would be dramatically increased - Which would furthermore explain why the very first threats we need to deal with after 6.0 is that of the Twelve and Lahabrea, the deities with the most widespread reverence and the man most invested in the creation of concepts and summoning of primals. This also explains why a cure for tempering had to come about in the story now, because after Endwalker it will be completely necessary narratively. Moreso, such a situation would be much more conducive to a series of smaller-scope expansions, since primals would be able to serve the role of primary antagonists rather than side hustle.

Now, with all that preamble out of the way, I suppose I'll offer a theory for an expansion following Endwalker.

As others have suggested, I would be interested in seeing another Far East/Hingashi expansion in the near future. Hingashi is an extremely isolationist nation, about as much as Ishgard was, so they likely have some hidden reason for being so. They're also wildly corrupt, so that's another reason to swing over. And furthermore while we dealt with Susanoo and Tsukuyomi in Stormblood, we never encountered the apex of that trifecta Amaterasu. We've also yet to see Nagxia or Dalmasca proper, and with the Imperial storyline seemingly coming to a close the question of what comes after for such provinces could be quite interesting, as Matsuno noted that was really the story he wanted to tell after Bozja rather than another liberation narrative. With a soft reset caused by the disillusion of the Empire, defeat of the 4th, and oncoming apocalypse in Endwalker, it could be none of the previous content in the area would even be made required by the MSQ. Aside from all that, an expansion in Meracydia also has potential - If anyone is left there who worshipped the Warring Triad or Bahamut, well, we killed the incarnations of all four, so they could be resummoned at any point and pose an issue.

Like others have said, I'm not up for a time travelling expansion, but I would be interested in a timeskip expansion, jumping forward quite a bit. Alternatively it would be fairly simple to frame a trip into the past as nothing less than an extended Echo vision, perhaps living through one of WoL's past lives. This would certainly be preferable to physically going back in time yourself.

Remember that there's a stated reason the Source doesn't have any known Ancient buildings (at least, that we're aware of); it's gone through a huge amount of apocalyptic, world-rending disasters, which eventually tear down even the pretty sturdy Ancient architecture. Consider Amaurot itself, off the coast of Vylbrand; in the First it had to take the End of Days, the Sundering (if that did any damage) and then eons underwater, while in the Source it's had to deal with all that, plus seven apocalypse-level events.

That's not to say we can't go to more Ancient buildings (even if I don't personally want to), but rather that any reasoning for getting us there has to be a little smarter than 'we just find them somewhere'.

Given the ruins on the First were all under the sea, it could be they simply still exist on the Source and nobody has found them. As far as I can recall we haven't exactly had the relations to ask the Sahagin about it.

[MikkoAkure]

Moreover, the inclusion that modern deities seem to be based on specific Ancient concepts, such as Ifrita to Ifrit, or Amaurot's Phoenix to Louisoix' Phoenix, further complicates the issue.

I feel like this was more of a call-back to connect summoning to the Ancients rather than saying that all gods and primals are actually Amaurotian blueprints. That could explain Ifrit and Phoenix but it can't explain tree people summoning a tree god, dragons (completely unknown beings to the Ancients) summoning a dragon god, snake ladies summoning a snake lady goddess, and centaur-like people summoning a centaur-like god. Then there's the fact that Shinryu is another dragon, as well as a primal, and looks that way because its summoner was influenced by Bahamut while using Nidhogg's aether.

And then, the question of the 1.0 cinematic. There, we see what appears to be the essences of the primals being freed from Silvertear by the massive Ceruleum explosion of the Agrius. How and why could this be the case? Well, it seems to me that the concepts of the primals were effectively being locked away there by Hydaelyn, and when the seal was cracked they were released, to be freely drawn upon for summoning once again.

If this were indeed the case, then how were the enemies of Allag able to summon primals 5000+ years ago? I think this needs a closer look before coming to conclusions. A lot of the lore from 1.0 has been retconned or paved over and I wouldn't base anything off of it.

As others have suggested, I would be interested in seeing another Far East/Hingashi expansion in the near future. Hingashi is an extremely isolationist nation, about as much as Ishgard was, so they likely have some hidden reason for being so. They're also wildly corrupt, so that's another reason to swing over. And furthermore while we dealt with Susanoo and Tsukuyomi in Stormblood, we never encountered the apex of that trifecta Amaterasu. We've also yet to see Nagxia or Dalmasca proper, and with the Imperial storyline seemingly coming to a close the question of what comes after for such provinces could be quite interesting, as Matsuno noted that was really the story he wanted to tell after Bozja rather than another liberation narrative. With a soft reset caused by the disillusion of the Empire, defeat of the 4th, and oncoming apocalypse in Endwalker, it could be none of the previous content in the area would even be made required by the MSQ. Aside from all that, an expansion in Meracydia also has potential - If anyone is left there who worshipped the Warring Triad or Bahamut, well, we killed the incarnations of all four, so they could be resummoned at any point and pose an issue.

We've already had a far-east expansion and I feel like showing up just because we're powerful and we don't like their government is a parallel to real life that we don't really need. I think Hingashi being closed off is just a writing tool to evoke feelings of Edo-period Japan. Meracydia would work if it wasn't the sole focus. It's a barren wasteland and I wouldn't expect to see any cities there that would qualify as a hub for the expansion.

Given the ruins on the First were all under the sea, it could be they simply still exist on the Source and nobody has found them. As far as I can recall we haven't exactly had the relations to ask the Sahagin about it.

It was specifically called out in-game that the underwater ruins of Amaurot on the Source likely do not exist anymore.

[Veloran]

I feel like this was more of a call-back to connect summoning to the Ancients rather than saying that all gods and primals are actually Amaurotian blueprints. That could explain Ifrit and Phoenix but it can't explain tree people summoning a tree god, dragons (completely unknown beings to the Ancients) summoning a dragon god, snake ladies summoning a snake lady goddess, and centaur-like people summoning a centaur-like god. Then there's the fact that Shinryu is another dragon, as well as a primal, and looks that way because its summoner was influenced by Bahamut while using Nidhogg's aether.


If this were indeed the case, then how were the enemies of Allag able to summon primals 5000+ years ago? I think this needs a closer look before coming to conclusions. A lot of the lore from 1.0 has been retconned or paved over and I wouldn't base anything off of it.

Easy. Hydaelyn sealed away primals, IE Ancient concepts, but not eikons, IE modern concepts. So she could still drain their aether and try to return them to the aetherial sea like the primals, but they weren't locked up.

We've already had a far-east expansion and I feel like showing up just because we're powerful and we don't like their government is a parallel to real life that we don't really need. I think Hingashi being closed off is just a writing tool to evoke feelings of Edo-period Japan. Meracydia would work if it wasn't the sole focus. It's a barren wasteland and I wouldn't expect to see any cities there that would qualify as a hub for the expansion.

We don't really know what Meracydia is like in the modern day other than that people exist there and they drive off any outsiders. As for Hingashi, rather than just intruding upon them it could rather be they turn expansionistic and try to invade Doma, Nagxia, and Dalmasca since the downfall of the empire has opened up a huge power vacuum. If I was to conceptualize this further, I'd say that Doma fends off the invasion, Nagxia is occupied, and the invasion only goes so far as Dalmasca Inferior, Golmore and Valnain. You may say we've already had a Far East expansion, but that isn't strictly true - We only really visited Yanxia and the Azim Steppe. Dalmasca, Golmore, Skatay, Nagxia, and Koshu are really not visited directly. If we're shifting gears in terms of story arcs, we really should take the time to flesh areas out and build upon what we have more rather than scarcely touch an entire continent and call it done.

As for a capitol hub, just make it Rabanastre.

It was specifically called out in-game that the underwater ruins of Amaurot on the Source likely do not exist anymore.

That was the given excuse, but it's not like any of the Scions can know firsthand what may or may not exist there. Not to mention there is some very Ancient architecture on those sky islands we've seen in the previews.

[MikkoAkure]

Easy. Hydaelyn sealed away primals, IE Ancient concepts, but not eikons, IE modern concepts. So she could still drain their aether and try to return them to the aetherial sea like the primals, but they weren't locked up.

Primals and eikons are different words for the same thing. Allagans, Garleans, and people conquered by Garleans use the word "eikon". Ascians and Eorzeans including beast tribes use the term "primal". Both require faith and aether. Why would there even be a need for there to be a difference for Ancient and modern summons if they both do exactly the same thing? The Ascians went around and taught people how to summon 5000 years ago, just as they did recently. The primals that we faced in ARR are no different than the ones the Allagans faced and if anything the ones that we faced first are weaker.

Why would she lock up a bunch of summoning concepts when any desperate group of people can summon beings that are MUCH stronger like the Warring Triad and Bahamut, all of which can destroy the world on their own?


As far as Hingashi, it doesn't make any sense for them to suddenly decide to invade when there's been no foreshadowing for that at all. Like Edo-period Japan, they're an isolationist nation uninterested in the goings on of the wider world. And if they had the knowledge that Doma, Dalmasca, and Nagxia were freed and the Garlean Empire is in decline, they would also have the knowledge that Doma has joined in a military alliance with the Nagxian, Bozjan, and Dalmascan resistance forces, as well as the entire region of Eorzea. I wouldn't understand why a lonely island nation more concerned with keeping its own citizens in line would suddenly have eyes for the rest of Othard.

On top of that, such a story would require the completion of the Bozja storyline, and I don't think it's realistic to make that a requirement for a future expansion. And considering how it ended, I think the story for that region is done for the foreseeable future.


We've already done primals, war (multiple times), liberation, shards, and time travel. I want something new. Let us get de-powered in 6.0 after losing access to Crystal Mom's trust fund and we go on an island hopping adventure to the Cieldades, Lalafellian homeland, and Meracydia for a well-earned vacation and fight the Melon Lord or something while discovering a dark and mysterious powerful secret underneath that has nothing directly to do with Ascians, Garleans, or Allagans. My favorite expansion of FFXI was Treasures of Aht Urghan, where we went to a land with a completely different aesthetic, brand new characters with very little carryover, and a story that had little to do with the overall story of the game, so it didn't quite carry the baggage of the original MSQ, and it had its own compelling stuff going on.

[Veloran]

Primals and eikons are different words for the same thing. Allagans, Garleans, and people conquered by Garleans use the word "eikon". Ascians and Eorzeans including beast tribes use the term "primal". Both require faith and aether. Why would there even be a need for there to be a difference for Ancient and modern summons if they both do exactly the same thing?

We have been told there's a difference though, the terminology is simply inconsistent and confusing because it hasn't been fully elaborated upon. You say there's a power differential, but really the story makes it out as the original Primals being at least as dangerous, capable of summoning tidalwaves, earthquakes, and firestorms that can ruin entire regions, and we have merely been lucky in stopping them before they strike out. That, and because many incarnations of the primals have been enervated though weak summonings with pitiful amounts of aether.

Why would she lock up a bunch of summoning concepts when any desperate group of people can summon beings that are MUCH stronger like the Warring Triad and Bahamut, all of which can destroy the world on their own?

It took thousands of years of worship and aether for Bahamut and the Triad to get as powerful as they were in the modern day. Moreover I'm not saying Hydaelyn sealed the primals and not eikons because of a qualitative difference between them, but because she was capable of doing so to the Ancient concepts at the time and not the modern ones, because her power was spent over time.

Also keep in mind that many modern animals were actually spawned from Ancient concepts, the griffon and (I think) manticore for example. A lot of the more monstrous creatures plaguing the world. It may be Hydaelyn simply sealed away the most dangerous concepts so they didn't infinitely replicate into the future like those ones did. Would you want millions of Ifrits running across the world?

As far as Hingashi, it doesn't make any sense for them to suddenly decide to invade when there's been no foreshadowing for that at all. Like Edo-period Japan, they're an isolationist nation uninterested in the goings on of the wider world. And if they had the knowledge that Doma, Dalmasca, and Nagxia were freed and the Garlean Empire is in decline, they would also have the knowledge that Doma has joined in a military alliance with the Nagxian, Bozjan, and Dalmascan resistance forces, as well as the entire region of Eorzea. I wouldn't understand why a lonely island nation more concerned with keeping its own citizens in line would suddenly have eyes for the rest of Othard.

By that logic there's no reason why the real life lonely island nation Hingashi is based on would have decided to become an expansionistic imperial power invading it's mainland neighbors. Japan had it's reasons and it's opportunity, Hingashi can have it's own.

On top of that, such a story would require the completion of the Bozja storyline, and I don't think it's realistic to make that a requirement for a future expansion. And considering how it ended, I think the story for that region is done for the foreseeable future.

I don't think the Bozja storyline would be required though. In the main story Garlemald's empire is basically already done for, Bozja was simply about the specific downfall of the 4th Legion and liberation of Bozja. All the elements for that are already in the MSQ - If we were to visit any of the Ilsabardian nations after Endwalker, there's already a good chance the legions overseeing them had fallen due to the events of Endwalker. Like Matsuno said, the real story of Dalmasca is what comes after it's liberation, not how it's liberated. So in what way would the Bozja storyline be relevant to that to the point of being required, other than introducing a few characters and a prelude to some of the ideas that might be in that storyline? Is there really any reason any of the characters should innately treat WoL differently just based on having done Bozja before? A few alternate lines upon some character's introductions are all it would take.

We've already done primals, war (multiple times), liberation, shards, and time travel. I want something new. Let us get de-powered in 6.0

In effect, another Stormblood-esque expansion would be downtime. You can't have an entire expansion's main story have no tension, stakes, or drama, that would just be incongruent with everything else in the game. And you don't need to suddenly depower WoL to just being a good adventurer in order to have stakes. Simply reducing the scale of the story to a continental conflict is already drastically lowering them already, you can't just boot primals, grand heroism, or war out of the plot and think that people will remain invested in some little island-hopping adventure with squabbling lalafells. There's lowering the drama and then there's taking a boot to it.

And if you don't want Allagans, Meracydia is the last place you should want to go.

[MikkoAkure]

We have been told there's a difference though, the terminology is simply inconsistent and confusing because it hasn't been fully elaborated upon.

Where have they said there's a difference? Unless there's something I've missed, per the lore book:"In addition to primal, the beings have historically also been known as 'eikons,' by both the Allagan and Garlean Empires who were adamant in their dismissal of the creatures' deific status."

I don't think the Bozja storyline would be required though. In the main story Garlemald's empire is basically already done for, Bozja was simply about the specific downfall of the 4th Legion and liberation of Bozja. All the elements for that are already in the MSQ - If we were to visit any of the Ilsabardian nations after Endwalker, there's already a good chance the legions overseeing them had fallen due to the events of Endwalker. Like Matsuno said, the real story of Dalmasca is what comes after it's liberation, not how it's liberated. So in what way would the Bozja storyline be relevant to that to the point of being required, other than introducing a few characters and a prelude to some of the ideas that might be in that storyline? Is there really any reason any of the characters should innately treat WoL differently just based on having done Bozja before? A few alternate lines upon some character's introductions are all it would take.

The big bad guy in Bozja storyline made his home in the largest still-standing city of Dalmasca and cutscenes show his troops in the streets of said city. It would be awkward to explain why Schrodinger's legion is simultaneously present or not present depending on whether or not you've done a side story that controls what happens in the whole region.

In effect, another Stormblood-esque expansion would be downtime. You can't have an entire expansion's main story have no tension, stakes, or drama, that would just be incongruent with everything else in the game. And you don't need to suddenly depower WoL to just being a good adventurer in order to have stakes. Simply reducing the scale of the story to a continental conflict is already drastically lowering them already, you can't just boot primals, grand heroism, or war out of the plot and think that people will remain invested in some little island-hopping adventure with squabbling lalafells. There's lowering the drama and then there's taking a boot to it.

That's just like your opinion, man. Just like how I'm sick of playing Nation Builder Simulator and I don't want yet another liberation/war story because it's tired.

[Veloran]

Where have they said there's a difference?

Unukalhai and the Warring Triad questline. Again, there's no conclusion of how they're different, just that they are in some way.

The big bad guy in Bozja storyline made his home in the largest still-standing city of Dalmasca and cutscenes show his troops in the streets of said city. It would be awkward to explain why Schrodinger's legion is simultaneously present or not present depending on whether or not you've done a side story that controls what happens in the whole region.

At a certain point it really is just best to assume the MSQ happens after the events of the previous expansion. If you really need some excuse, the MSQ could simply not visit Valnain and instead focus on Rabanastre and the Viera in Golmore and Skatay rather than the other race's settlements there. But honestly, it's someone's own fault if they play a previous expansion's content after a newer one - You can, after all, play the Warring Triad long after Varis is dead and Garlemald in ruins or all the Scions have been shunted off to the First. This is just the nature of the game.

That's just like your opinion, man. Just like how I'm sick of playing Nation Builder Simulator and I don't want yet another liberation/war story because it's tired.

Shadowbringers also had a "liberation/war" storyline. Seems to me people are only "tired" of the concept in theory because Stormblood could be a drag so if you bring it up that equals Stormblood 2: Exact Same Faults Edition.

[MikkoAkure]

Unukalhai and the Warring Triad questline. Again, there's no conclusion of how they're different, just that they are in some way.

That's where I think you're confused. He referred to the eikons separately because that was the contemporary term used specifically for those 3 summons. Odin existed at the exact same time, but he's referred to as a primal and not an eikon and is weaker than any of the summons that we have come into contact with except for the child version Titan. Bahamut similarly is also called a primal and no one in story is called out on it and corrected. Additionally, Principia, an Allag creation, as well as Gaius, a Garlean legatus, refer to Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda as "eikons".


Lahabrea has been going around teaching people how to summon things for at least 5000 years so I'm not inclined to believe that the 6 elemental summons are any different. The writers would first have to establish that there is a difference between anything summoned before 15 years ago from everything now, and even then, you would need to weed out summons that would have absolutely 0 connection to anything at all related to the Ancients. Shiva was a real life person that Ysayle believed super hard in so by your criteria, she cannot be an Amaurotian concept, yet she's one of the 6 single-element primals. Good King Moggle Mog and Thordan are also based on real, historical people and have no elemental affinity. Does that mean we're wrong and they're "eikons" and not "primals"?

Then there's the inconsistencies. Lahabrea attempted to teach a group of Ala Mhigans how to summon Rhalgr, a lightning aspected god. But why would he do that if he's heavily implied to be the same origin as Ramuh and by your criteria, only one can be summoned at a time? If "eikons" are non-elemental god beings and "primals" are elemental beings born from the land, then how does that explain Unukalhai saying that the dual-elemental primals like Bismark and Ravana are indeed primals, but the dual-elemental Zurvan is an eikon? Also, where would Belias-egi come from if he looks exactly like a different version of Ifrit, while at the same time there is a record of the Allagans putting down a primal named "Belias" (let's not talk about the lucavi in the lighthouse because that just confuses things more)?

[Veloran]

That's where I think you're confused. He referred to the eikons separately because that was the contemporary term used specifically for those 3 summons. Odin existed at the exact same time, but he's referred to as a primal and not an eikon and is weaker than any of the summons that we have come into contact with except for the child version Titan. Bahamut similarly is also called a primal and no one in story is called out on it and corrected. Additionally, Principia, an Allag creation, as well as Gaius, a Garlean legatus, refer to Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda as "eikons".

Except he doesn't just call them eikons, he calls them eikons and specifically notes that eikons are different from primals somehow. Indeed, he also calls Odin an eikon.