Do you think Melee DPS should have a weak AoE around lv16 for the very first dungeon?

[GeminiReed]

I guess all level 50 and below dungeons could let you have your level 50 kit if you are synching down. And then they would just have to make sur that level 50 kits are fine for every job. This could apply to every expansion too, it would always do a better job to teach you your class, or keep you less bored during an unlucky roulette.

I've been in games with level sync systems that only scaled your hp and damage but left all your skills intact. They were miserable and led to a lot of toxicity. (Who let the noob in? /kick!)

IMO the better approach would be to ensure that all classes have their core rotation in place much earlier and for the love of the 12 stop pruning abilities from the lower levels just to tack on something at the very end.

[Gemina]

One cure or similar spell heals like 75% of the hp of a tank. Its not very taxing for the healers which also dont get an aoe until very late. They pose a very insignificant threat especially over long term.

That's cool. Your HPS still isn't enough to sustain the tank through large pulls in those early levels. You don't have regen or any oGCDs to help. The 2.5s GCD + cast time is actually more than enough time for your tank to melt while your casting your saving cure spell if he pulls too many. The attack power of enemies doesn't lessen as their HP pools drain. The damage an enemy causes doesn't cease until it is dead. That is why in those early levels, your best means of damage mitigation is by eliminating the number of targets attacking the tank; but you can lessen the need for that by pulling fewer enemies. AoE just isn't strong enough to reduce the threat level at a pace that is reasonable for the group to handle.

[kaynide]

@OP: At level 16, no.

But I would say after those first 3 dungeons, all classes should have the core 3-hit single target rotation, and at least 1 AoE.

I'm a firm believer that by level 30, you should have what will be your core rotation set. Post 30, you should only be getting:
A) more potent versions of current spells (eg. Stone -> Stone 2).. though to be honest this can just be cut entirely imho
B) oGCD abilities to weave in
C) passive things that make your job more interesting (skill speed increase, reduced time on oGCD abilities like bloodlust)
D) Interesting resource management (eg. Kenki on Samurai for more DPS)

I also believe you should have your entire kit by 50, full stop. The only thing you should be getting post 50 is more uses of established oGCD stuff, like additional uses of your gap closer or stun.

Just my humble opinion!

[SpeckledBurd]

Why?

First off, how many times are you hitting level 16 for this to be an issue?
Second, those dungeons are easy as it is...why does it need to be easier? You do realize they are tuned to not need AOE right?

By getting your first AOE immediately before a dungeon it promotes good habits early on about when you should be using them.

[PlushyprincessMusa]

Honestly yes because everyone likes to big pull (I think player avarage play though dungeons should play a big part in this choice) and when big pulled theres only a few things that can aoe it down I remember a rogue and I in it as a dragoon and it took a good bit of time compared to games where there was a blm are an archer

[Shougun]

I.....

Kind of like that each job gets features at a different point... I mean I absolutely understand that it is a bit annoying and not the most optimal, but the pace of each job being a little different is a way they stand out a bit more than otherwise. Since our jobs were streamlined and a bit more homogonized for balance reasons.. this is like one of those not really important ways to seperate them.

Although I know one might just say "how about making the differences actually exciting then, hmmm?" lol. Yes.. that'd be nice.. Just my thought on it that I'm not leaping to make every job get the same type of skill at the same level for the sake of perfect parity. Of course you could try and mix it up a bit by creating weaker "class" variants of later higher level skills that are one off oGCDs (the class variants being improved to their original format via passives like most skills self upgrade). So maybe one job has spammable aoes while another might have a nuke AoE (oGCD). It.. sort of separates them a bit. Still, I think leveling process is one way to express job differences greater than they technically actually are since the balance isn't really that important until you reach capstone points / cap level (50,60,70, etc). So maybe purposefully NOT giving a job an AoE early on but giving their kit a bias to boss destroying.

More skills early on could be nice, using the class variant passive upgrade system to replace them later.. just not entirely sure we have to have same parity pacing, behind capstone points at least, and if it just further increases how similar each job is.

[Lexis]

Yes! I would love for all jobs to have a basic AoE attack and a full 1-2-3 combo rotation for the melee and ranged dps. The low level dungeons are simplistic enough as it is, seems to me like the perfect opportunity to have us learn our most basic rotation.

Plus, I see no reason to delay melee's access to AoE abilities, it just makes them frustrating to play. I was desperate for a spammable AoE skill with my ninja and it didn't come until lvl 38 x.o I stopped queuing for anything pre-38 as soon as I got it and groaned everytime I'd get a pre-38 dungeon on my leveling roulette.

[Arkdra]

That's cool. Your HPS still isn't enough to sustain the tank through large pulls in those early levels. You don't have regen or any oGCDs to help. The 2.5s GCD + cast time is actually more than enough time for your tank to melt while your casting your saving cure spell if he pulls too many. The attack power of enemies doesn't lessen as their HP pools drain. The damage an enemy causes doesn't cease until it is dead. That is why in those early levels, your best means of damage mitigation is by eliminating the number of targets attacking the tank; but you can lessen the need for that by pulling fewer enemies. AoE just isn't strong enough to reduce the threat level at a pace that is reasonable for the group to handle.

Rofl I wall pull low level dungeons all the time is this a joke post? Top tier pull to feel alive as a healer is to pull every single mob from the first door to that last set of mobs right before the first boss after walking on the platforms in copperbell. The first 6 or so will leash but that still leaves you tanking about 18 mobs. Or 9 if you have 1 single dancer who will kill the first half of them as you run. You don't need fancy tools to heal a wall puller when physick heals a tank from ~10% health to full health.

[Bsrking5]

That's cool. Your HPS still isn't enough to sustain the tank through large pulls in those early levels. You don't have regen or any oGCDs to help. The 2.5s GCD + cast time is actually more than enough time for your tank to melt while your casting your saving cure spell if he pulls too many. The attack power of enemies doesn't lessen as their HP pools drain. The damage an enemy causes doesn't cease until it is dead. That is why in those early levels, your best means of damage mitigation is by eliminating the number of targets attacking the tank; but you can lessen the need for that by pulling fewer enemies. AoE just isn't strong enough to reduce the threat level at a pace that is reasonable for the group to handle.

Have you been going into sashy with just your level 1 main hand agian? I've never seen a tank die from full to zero in less than a gcd without a mechanic fail which is what you are claiming happens in trash mobs. Your HPS is enough you could have serious lag issues and nearly getting kick out from latancy and still have the tank above 50% the whole time.

[Derio]

Yes. Considering you can do wall to wall pulls in Satasha. Many times in that case only the tank and a depending on the dps has a AOE ability at that level.

That needs to be fixed. Also all tanks need to have their AOE rotation before lvl 50.