Thank you for inviting Asmongold to the media tour!!

[Kolsykol]

They could just bring back '' Hard Dungeons ''.
I actually like that back in ARR how the dungeons had different versions that were harder.

For example Haukke Manor has two different versions.

[Nightingaile]

Oh man I really hope he asks YoshiP to bring Mythic+ and harder raids to FFXIV!

Hopefully FFXIV becomes more like wow!

Totally bait.

Though for the record I hope it *doesnt*. I've had negative experiences with many (not all) WoW players I've met since they all came over. WoW is dated and needs to stay in the past where it belongs.

Couldn't help but notice you have a bunch of Ultimate weapons. If the game isn't hard enough for you, that's not a reason to change it for everyone else. Maybe go play a different game?

[Mindiori]

You say that like a company being Japanese or its player base being largely Asian somehow correlates away from difficulty.

Historically, it's quite the opposite.

Expecting sense from someone without any, is a fools errand.

[Darkpaw]

I was right to make sure everyone bring the popcorn to this troll post. MPK has done it again.

[Rinhi]

Or maybe the players should continue to enjoy the game and have fun and not approach game content like preparing for the nclex.

That type of gameplay is available many other places and can be experienced there.

sorry for expecting people to press buttons in a video game they play, I guess?
sad that those players who are actively a detriment to every group get enabled and defended by players like you, though

Oh, and a Japanese company making content that is popular with their Asian player base is worth it to them.

the one community that can use DF for savages and extremes without issues or drama? the one community, where every server's savage clear rate dwarf those even of gilgamesh, the western's server with the highest rate?
ok lol

Your outlook on player mentality is unhealthy. No one enjoys floor tanking. I don't know how a sane person could say that they do with a straight face. As a new player, I'll give you a couple of cases in point of content that is stupidly difficult.

because I've experienced it multiple times in various amount of "hard" content?
people gleefully kill themselves in the deathwalls during DR and refuse any raise, knowing they won't be able to get kicked
people actively refuse raises because of some made up reason or even no reason during the nier, ivalide or void ark raids and won't roll on loot because it'll guarantee they won't get kicked due to impatient people insta pulling or worse, people defending them when someone points this out
and yes, I've seen people defending those people

The first is the first boss of the second raid in the Void Ark series. You go in your first time, and you're immediately pulled into a black hole that you immediately have to start running out of. I don't care how good of a player you are; if this is your first time in the instance, the chance that you die to that mechanic is about 95%. So you're resurrected, and immediately after the resurrection, you're blown off the ship because you have no idea that you're supposed to put your back to an ice wall. Nothing in the game is going to prepare you for that.

people generally have a laugh during that boss and explain all the mechanics when the first timers have experienced those - or do you want people to ruin a first timer's experience by explaining every intricate detail of the raid and what the boss will cast throughout the fight?
a friend and I have seen this during orbonne, where someone (mentor, btw) had a macro for every single fight in the game despite people asking to stop using it after the first wall of text due to multiple first timers wanting to do it blind

The next one is the Bozja raid, Delubrum Reginae. Every boss in there has several gimmicky mechanics that everyone is just about guaranteed to die to on their first run. It took me about three runs of that raid just to get to the point where I could survive through the first four bosses without dying at least once. Between the ladder puzzles, the bombs with the reverse weight mechanics, and the Queen's Will stuff, you have plenty of guarantees that a first-time player will be dying regardless of how well the game has prepared them.

DRN is endgame and it's issues aren't the mechanics, but people not using essences designed for DR
but as I said at the beginning, plenty, and I mean plenty of people refuse raises and just kill themselves or let themselves be killed because they know they won't be kicked, we've had multiple threads about this issue even, so yes, people WILLINGLY floor tank

Also, "average" is a relative measure. In general, half the players will always be below average. The best players will always be far above average. Even if the game "trains" players to play at what you now consider to be an average level, the definition of average will simply shift accordingly, and what you now consider to be a good player will then become average while the player you now consider to be average will be considered bad. That's yet another reason that chasing this dream of designing a game to train everyone to be phenomenal player is futile. In the end, you're just left with a game consisting of the very best players while everyone else moves on to greener pastures where players are treated like customers who want to be entertained rather than like employees who are expected to perform and produce.

what I mean with average level is simple:
tank: use mitigation, use AOEs vs 2 or more enemies and be able to follow the glowing buttons vs a single target
dps: use their combos, AOE vs 2 or more enemies, buff usage
healer: use their AOE vs 2 or more enemies, don't exclusively rely on hardcasting GCDs to heal

if it's not obvious I'm not talking about sub level 60 players here, but players who have spent a considerable amount of time playing the game at this point

Finally, I'd like to point out that the ability to 15-man these bosses is what makes those mechanics viable right now. As it is, you get to experience the frustration of floor tanking for your first few runs, but once you get a few under your belt, you experience the amusement of watching others fall prey to the same crap that was killing you just hours prior. So you throw down some reses and/or eke out a win with half the players, and you feel like a hero who came through for your fallen comrades. In contrast, the way M+ works in WoW, losing a player in any given fight is at the very least a wipe, and in the worst case it causes the key to fail and the group to disband. No one is amused. Everyone's pissed, the failing player is blacklisted, and time feels wasted.

I've never played WoW so I don't know how M+ or any other stuff works in that game, but that sounds a bit like the average savage PF stuff I hear about, tbh

I personally don't think that, say, 24 man content should be carryable by a few people but it's not like I can change it, so I don't really complain about it, which also wasn't the point of my post, tbh
as I said before, I'm talking about players who have cleared said content multiple times STILL dying to the same telegraphed things they must've died to a million times at that point and showing no sign of learning at all, not first timers, or worse, people willingly dying and refusing rezzes and knowing that they can get away with it due to various reasons as said earlier

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Yes create some more challenging content including more creative and challenging dungeons; maybe as optional side stuff, or endgame content not tied to the MSQ, or maybe have a small handful of Hard MSQ dungeons.
All of that and a bag a chips, sounds like a GREAT time.
But no, get out of here with the idea of FFXIV needs to be like WoW. All those dumb systems can take a hike

Just gonna Echo this just in case anybody missed it

[Jin-]

I think Age of Conan did dungeons really well. Niche MMORPG from smaller "indie" company.

Khitai expansion (sadly the first and also the final one) offered various of dungeons with dynamic normal and hard mode triggers on the bosses. You could perform specific tasks to activate the optional hard mode which by the way gave better rewards for those deserving them after clearing the boss. You could still solo farm the hard mode tokens but it literally takes forever, at least it did when i played. Few tokens per day and item costs 500 tokens. Good push to learn the hard mode I'd say. Dungeons weren't so scripted so you could clear them with knowledge and gameplay experience. Depending on the class of course.

Heck, they even had Vauthry's distant cousin Po-Sha and he died when demon born out of him. Hit's like a truck.
His hardmode you would activate by attacking him and his elite guard all at the same time without luring the guards away from him like you would normally do.

Would go back 10 years of time just for that one game. Slightly more modern than Classic WoW with mature themes and small tight community

[Shurrikhan]

In contrast, the way M+ works in WoW, losing a player in any given fight is at the very least a wipe, and in the worst case it causes the key to fail and the group to disband. No one is amused. Everyone's pissed, the failing player is blacklisted, and time feels wasted.

A single wipe will rarely cause a failed run. I've frequently had several wipes and still timed, even above 15s (the reward cap).

Losing a DPS will not guarantee a wipe. Hell, I've gotten through a few off just the tank and a hybrid DPS surviving, or the last fifth of a couple boss fights literally as just the tank. And that's out of 5 players, up from the 4 here.

Spare us the exaggerations. It's fallacious enough to blame trends that have been here since ARR (heck, since 1.x, really) on the recent increases in players coming over from WoW.

Yes, the keystone system is a fairly poor one. For all it offers in a concrete sense of progression and (unfortunately forced) variety, it's ultimately convoluted and anti-player. I could make the same case for the infrequency of checkpoints (or Shadowlands' having even restricted checkpoints in certain dungeons just to give purpose for their incredibly wasteful Covenants system). But that has nothing to do with the actual difficulty or gameplay involved. It's not surprising, therefore that no one arguing for a greater span of difficulties has been arguing for keystones.

Similarly, yes, the way they attached external reward systems (the Vault) to it was poorly done. But no one arguing for more than faceroll-difficulty dungeons has argued that dungeon rewards must be allowed to compete with the highest levels of raiding or otherwise cause a similar debacle. How is that we were fine with a whole expansion's worth of Savage and any full deep dungeon clear, etc., giving no gear reward and yet assume that the moment someone wants more challenging 4-man content beyond what little is provided by cheap procedural generation must be seeking to destroy existing reward paradigms? How WoW rewarded higher difficulties has no bearing on how XIV would do so. We've already plentifully seen the differences.

Finally, I'd like to point out that the ability to 15-man these bosses is what makes those mechanics viable right now. As it is, you get to experience the frustration of floor tanking for your first few runs, but once you get a few under your belt, you experience the amusement of watching others fall prey to the same crap that was killing you just hours prior.

On this, I largely agree, but this is also where XIV manages, time and time again, to find the difference between "decreased difficulty" and "increased accessibility". Unintuitive mechanics are not "difficult" beyond first contact. They simply become a "first-timer tax" on your raid; you merely pay the toll via explanation and/or rezzes. At the same time, not introducing players to similar mechanics earlier -- which would technically be an increase (though negligible) in difficulty -- is what makes those mechanics seemingly inaccessible. Gimmicks, practically the core of XIV full party content, are neither difficult (bearing significant cognitive load or expectations) nor accessible.

Just consider: if there more ways to deduce the coming mechanic via signals, clues in previous mechanics, etc., the actual cognitive load on the player (the "difficulty"), would be higher. And yet, there would be fewer deaths and the content would ultimately be more "accessible".

Rinhi isn't wrong to say that the game does a rather poor job of teaching its players. And, to be fair, that's not just due to little exposure; it's equally a matter of what expectations the game seems centered around, which have changed quite a bit over time, only settling before the recent surge of players from WoW.

Finally, though, let's talk about those specific mechanics and similar gimmicks:

• Take the black hole mechanic, for example. When a mechanic pulls you IN, chances are you immediately want to go back OUT.
• If an AoE just went off (inside, outside, across a given linear AoE) and does not present a sustained laser beam or puddle-of-obvious-danger, chances are what was just dangerous is now safe.
• If arrows are pointing in one direction, you typically want to go the opposite way, and if you can fall off of the arena, then you'll want to move to the side of an object that would prevent movement through it, again opposite the direction indicated.

These aren't particularly complex, each basically boiling down to taking back space or control, and back when these things actually mattered (i.e., when mechanics were more impactful even when not necessarily any more likely to outright one-shot on the first hit taken), players were far quicker to acquire these assumptions, expectations, or even a sort of "rhythm" to XIV's fights.

[Allegor]

snip

What I find amusing is that while WoW is a rather actively hostile community, where even within friend groups they're the type who would lowkey bully you and say they're just joking, XIV is the polar opposite - many can be so enabling that calling someone on toxic behavior [such as the examples you gave] is ,ironically, seen as just as toxic... everything has to be always sunshine and rainbows and any negativity is swept under the rug.

It's like people try so hard to not be like WoW [albeit, with good reason] that it somehow became the anti-WoW, and it's not as good as it may sound.

[Minsue]

Look you can dislike the guy he is kind of a jerk face and has made some pretty bad comments in terms of just being a human and still feel for him having a sick mom and even though I dislike him and disagree most times he does have some good points same for WoW loved it grew up with it and watched it's fall heck even our beloved Yoshi-p loves WoW I could totally get on board with a ffxiv version of mythic plus now all wow stuff no but there is some good concepts mixed it there with the bad. I dunno People can we just like even if we dislike each other be nice...I could really use some faith in humanity right now. Also hope his mom gets better sucks losing your mom..