Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

[Ath192]

Synonyms are rarely interchangeable in any involved context, however, so what is your point exactly?

That people like difficulty and involvement in content they love. And simplicity and ease only make for a forgettable experience. As such, they should make FFXIV more challenging because the game is too easy.

For example here is a video of a Warrior Soloing Paglth'an, the latest dungeon available to players and part of the so called "Expert" duty roulette.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMgTambpkRc

I don't know about you but knowing the content is so easy a single person can mow through the entire dungeon without any aid defeats the purpose of having a team or playing multiplayer. It's also very sad as a party member knowing you are just there just because, its not like they need you or anything. You want to help? great, You want to sit down and not do anything? They'll keep going just fine. Your presence is meaningless to a good tank with self heals or two players that know how to handle things.

It's a very empty feeling to be in a game and knowing the content is so easy you do not matter at all.

You apparently need to be an "extreme" level player or above to begin to matter. I don't think anyone can look at those labels and agree with a serious face. I also don't say this because I dislike the game, I say this because I want it to improve.

[RitsukoSonoda]

That people like difficulty and involvement in content they love. And simplicity and ease only make for a forgettable experience. As such, they should make FFXIV more challenging because the game is too easy.

For example here is a video of a Warrior Soloing Paglth'an, the latest dungeon available to players and part of the so called "Expert" duty roulette.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMgTambpkRc

I don't know about you but knowing the content is so easy a single person can mow through the entire dungeon without any aid defeats the purpose of having a team or playing multiplayer. It's also very sad as a party member knowing you are just there just because, its not like they need you or anything. You want to help? great, You want to sit down and not do anything? They'll keep going just fine. Your presence is meaningless to a good tank with self heals or two players that know how to handle things.

It's a very empty feeling to be in a game and knowing the content is so easy you do not matter at all.

You apparently need to be an "extreme" level player or above to begin to matter. I don't think anyone can look at those labels and agree with a serious face. I also don't say this because I dislike the game, I say this because I want it to improve.

But the lazy players making noise want the game easier because they want other people to clear the content for them so they can roll on the loot that drops.

Accessibility is basically meaning it's available to everyone. That does not mean the content needs to be dumbed down or trivialized to the point party members aren't needed. Ex trials are accessible by everyone, savage raids are accessible by everyone, Ultimate is accessible by everyone. It's a matter of the player actually putting the time or effort to unlock and complete the content. This should be the same for MSQ, 4 player duties, and normal mode 8 player content because that content is supposed to be preparing players to do the other content. The thing I feel the devs aren't realizing based on the route they've gone with nerfs to various duties and the MSQ is that these people crying about being "gated" are going into the harder content as well and being a hinderance to the other players in those duties as they now essentially have to clear it as if they were missing party members. As a result it's caused a breakdown of the already diminished social aspects of the game. These underdeveloped players jumping into ex/savage/ultimate/etc aren't any different than those people that never cleared the beginning of a single player game grabbing the controller from their friend playing that game on a boss fight late in that same game and trying to clear it. It ends in a prompt face plant and game over because they never developed the game skills to do it.

[DPZ2]

It's a very empty feeling to be in a game and knowing the content is so easy you do not matter at all.

So, you're taking the video of one extremely competent player of unknown gear level (but I'd wager it's 530-535) as an example of how 'easy' the content is and how meaningless your contribution might be?

Do not forget that this 'expert roulette' is also an MSQ instance that can be run with Trusts. It is not meant as an extreme challenge. It is written to be completed by four not-GamerGod-like players in a reasonable amount of time in order to progress the story line.

If anything, this video should encourage SE to take a serious look at nerfing the Warrior ability Nascent Flash, something I doubt the video poster really wants to happen.

[Artemiz]

So many negative waves in this thread honestly. Just because some people can understand the design philosophy behind the current dungeon difficulty level doesn't mean we all want to sit here and eat grapes while our party clears the content for us.

That people like difficulty and involvement in content they love. And simplicity and ease only make for a forgettable experience. As such, they should make FFXIV more challenging because the game is too easy.

For example here is a video of a Warrior Soloing Paglth'an, the latest dungeon available to players and part of the so called "Expert" duty roulette.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMgTambpkRc

I don't know about you but knowing the content is so easy a single person can mow through the entire dungeon without any aid defeats the purpose of having a team or playing multiplayer. It's also very sad as a party member knowing you are just there just because, its not like they need you or anything. You want to help? great, You want to sit down and not do anything? They'll keep going just fine. Your presence is meaningless to a good tank with self heals or two players that know how to handle things.

It's a very empty feeling to be in a game and knowing the content is so easy you do not matter at all.

You apparently need to be an "extreme" level player or above to begin to matter. I don't think anyone can look at those labels and agree with a serious face. I also don't say this because I dislike the game, I say this because I want it to improve.

Your contribution always matters though, it will make a run smoother and faster. As for one job clearing content I will invoke FFXI again as you like it as an example of a game done right. RDM, BLM, BST, PUP and NIN/DNC could solo massive amounts of the game that took an alliance or at least a party to defeat. It might take 2 hours compared to a 10 minute normal fight but they could do it. For large parts of that game most of the alliance would stand around doing nothing while a few key players defeated a boss, whether that be a GEO with their thumb up their ass once bubble went up, or melee jobs in a ranged fight like Kirin (old school) For so many fights you needed a good tank, healer, a few buffs and two (or even one SCH) to execute skillchains and boom, you win.

Players will always find ways to low man stuff, it's not unique to FFXIV.

[Ath192]

So many negative waves in this thread honestly. Just because some people can understand the design philosophy behind the current dungeon difficulty level doesn't mean we all want to sit here and eat grapes while our party clears the content for us.



Your contribution always matters though, it will make a run smoother and faster. As for one job clearing content I will invoke FFXI again as you like it as an example of a game done right. RDM, BLM, BST, PUP and NIN/DNC could solo massive amounts of the game that took an alliance or at least a party to defeat. It might take 2 hours compared to a 10 minute normal fight but they could do it. For large parts of that game most of the alliance would stand around doing nothing while a few key players defeated a boss, whether that be a GEO with their thumb up their ass once bubble went up, or melee jobs in a ranged fight like Kirin (old school) For so many fights you needed a good tank, healer, a few buffs and two (or even one SCH) to execute skillchains and boom, you win.

Players will always find ways to low man stuff, it's not unique to FFXIV.

It's hard to know what argument you are trying to make. But so far I've got:

1. Trying to say FFXI was equally as easy as XIV in its prime.
2. Defending that the difficulty level in 4 player dungeons should be so easy one person should be able to clear it alone.

The argument I'm trying to make is 4 man dungeons should be designed hard enough that it takes 4 people to clear it, because it is 4 player content, not 1 player content. If you disagree I understand. No biggie. Just getting my point across here that some people want to feel like they worked at least some for their hero status in the story as the Warrior of Light.

[Artemiz]

It's hard to know what argument you are trying to make. But so far I've got:

1. Trying to say FFXI was equally as easy as XIV in its prime.
2. Defending that the difficulty level in 4 player dungeons should be so easy one person should be able to clear it alone.

The argument I'm trying to make is 4 man dungeons should be designed hard enough that it takes 4 people to clear it, because it is 4 player content, not 1 player content. If you disagree I understand. No biggie. Just getting my point across here that some people want to feel like they worked at least some for their hero status in the story as the Warrior of Light.

No FFXI is clearly harder, but much less popular. How much those two factors influence each other is open for debate but you used FFXI as an example of how harder is better. Im suggesting its difficulty caused a lot of people to quit.

My overall point about dungeon difficulty is that we have easy dungeons now as a direct consequence of the problems caused by having harder dungeons when the game launched. It used to be harder to tank, so we ended up with a shortage of tanks and tanks bailing at the start of certain dungeons. This lead to long queues. It used to be harder to heal, same thing, shortage of healers. We've had stricter DPS checks, it led to wipes and abandoned dungeon runs.

People are asking to start rolling that back, but with it you will get the problems back too.

Dungeons are designed for everyone to play. So they are tuned to make that possible with as little friction as possible. For players seeking a greater challenge the game has provided it. Asking to raise the difficulty floor will lead to less players, and more drama. SE know this, because we've seen it and done it before.

[RitsukoSonoda]

No FFXI is clearly harder, but much less popular. How much those two factors influence each other is open for debate but you used FFXI as an example of how harder is better. Im suggesting its difficulty caused a lot of people to quit.

My overall point about dungeon difficulty is that we have easy dungeons now as a direct consequence of the problems caused by having harder dungeons when the game launched. It used to be harder to tank, so we ended up with a shortage of tanks and tanks bailing at the start of certain dungeons. This lead to long queues. It used to be harder to heal, same thing, shortage of healers. We've had stricter DPS checks, it led to wipes and abandoned dungeon runs.

People are asking to start rolling that back, but with it you will get the problems back too.

Dungeons are designed for everyone to play. So they are tuned to make that possible with as little friction as possible. For players seeking a greater challenge the game has provided it. Asking to raise the difficulty floor will lead to less players, and more drama. SE know this, because we've seen it and done it before.

However making everything easier has resulted in other problems. Players that took the time to learn how to play the game are quitting because of boredom because the game is too easy resulting in people seeing various duties abandoned more often before they even start because the odds of encountering a player in DF that hasn't learned basic mechanics has increased. This also translates to problems with the content labeled "harder" because the easy mode players are not going to sit around satisfied with easy mode rewards. They want the shiny things they see in the "harder" content too. So it makes more sense to have the things leading up to that "harder" content be harder as well so that they're atleast prepared for the "harder" content when they jump into it. Back in the days you talk about where dungeons were harder it was fairly common to clear EX primals through DF. Now, not so much. Harder duties didn't make a shortage of tanks or healers. The playerbase created a shortage of tanks and healers. Anything SE does to try and "fix" this implied shortage is nothing more than using a band-aid to try and stop a leaking water pipe. This is due to a mentality of wanting to be the "hero" in the party and a majority of the player base associated this role with being the one that pushes button and makes big damage numbers hence DPS. Tanks will likely be the most in demand role when Endwalker launches simply because DPS and Healer are getting new job options. Tank and healer felt non existent when stormblood launched because they added 2 new dps jobs which were ones that were asked for by a large amount of the player base. Healer was the most in demand role when Shadowbringers launched because it launched with a new tank and DPS.

[Artemiz]

snip

But the game has never had so many players and its still rising. However many people leave because dungeons are too easy they are clearly being vastly outnumbered by the amount of new players starting, attracted in large part, by the accessibility of content.

I beg to differ about ex primals BTW, its always been party finder content for the vast majority.

And yes, new jobs effect queue times. I dont think anyone is arguing they don't.

[Shurrikhan]

But the game has never had so many players and its still rising. However many people leave because dungeons are too easy they are clearly being vastly outnumbered by the amount of new players starting, attracted in large part, by the accessibility of content.

Except you have no way of drawing causation there short of surveying a significant, random/representative sample and finding that, yes, the main reason they play is the lack of difficulty in dungeons or the ease (and thereby quickness) with which content can be consumed.

And even if they were all tell you, unequivocally, that they find the game better off for that quick consumption, that still wouldn't be enough to reasonably inform design because they aren't yet in a position where there are any costs in trade (i.e., where they'd actually run out of content), even while players for whom there is far less new content available see almost nothing but costs for design having favored to those newer players. And yet, unless you can forever and always draw in as many new players as you have players reach the end of available content, it's not sustainable. It's merely a pyramid scheme of favoring group B over former group A in order to draw in a larger group C to eventually replace A and B alike and draw group D, etc., etc.

[Shurrikhan]

That people like difficulty and involvement in content they love. And simplicity and ease only make for a forgettable experience. As such, they should make FFXIV more challenging because the game is too easy.

I would agree with all that. But treating difficulty as if it were interchangeable with complexity on one end or or convolution on the other does design no favors -- hence my asking why you would bother pointing out something as useless as synonyms for words that end up with varyingly precise meanings, especially in the discussion of video games.

We've seen time and time again, for instance, that difficulty and accessibility are not opposite one another unless one considers "difficulty", quite uselessly, as anything that would determine an player's chances of success regardless of prior encounters or likely encounters -- as opposed to, say, the actual cognitive load (or relative increase in cognitive load and related stress) that a player would face. (Heck, it's generally a lack of difficulty across most of the game that makes certain later mechanics and the likes of Savage or Ultimate seem to lack accessibility.)

Similarly, even those who have condemned a loss in complexity have often been thrilled by reduced convolution, simply because removing that façade of complexity has made space for actual additions to the given kit's means of engagement, all while increasing quality of life in ways that do not negatively impact true complexity.