Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

[RitsukoSonoda]

Yet we both know, that because this style of laughable laziness and meaningless existence is the majority by way of peoples tendency to be exactly that, lazy; they are the loudest financial voice. In many respects they have destroyed the genre with their own selfishness - whilst claiming that our 'minority' should be ignored. Almost laughable in its irony, considering the 'hurr durr equality' trend they try and argue when it suits them. If anything is tedious its their disingenuous motives. Which really equate to being mentally unable to handle anyone being able to do something they can't. You oft say I am prone to exaggerate; but as you can see - I do so, usually to offset their own. Something which when unchecked, often tends to set the narrative.

I accept that to compromise with what they cite to be 'casual'; some middle ground needs be found. I do however take disagreement as you know by now - the notion that casual = entertained by braindead rubbish. Which isn't anything more than again, agenda driven mental gymnastics. Something's relative worth, is often established by comparative norms. So having things easy - serves no purpose. Except as experience has shown, to create an unnecessary gulf between the tiny fraction of things requiring a brain and those that don't. Which in turn worsens the scenario I believe.

If the game needs be repeatedly dumbed down to account for the bottom tier and skip-pot users; one might begin to question why the early game should even exist anymore. Or how it can be justified to play with so little through so many levels. Presumably a vast amount don't. Seems we have the usual 'the only game is endgame' going on - when the actual bar to most content in terms of skill, is basically just being able to click one button. Not exactly the height of feeling with regard to accomplishment or worth is it.

The issue is that the lazy gamers are actually the minority. However like most people of that mindset that want things without working for them they expend as much or more effort and energy in whining and complaining about why they shouldn't have to work than they would have by just doing it. It's like children in a store. A majority of them are well behaved. People tend to only notice the obnoxious one screaming at the top of their lungs throwing a fit because they want something and their parents aren't giving it to them. The problem is how the situation is handled. All of this dumbing down easy mode stuff SE has been doing to this game is about the equivalent of the parents of said screaming child giving them the thing they wanted because they don't want everyone in the store looking at them which is basically rewarding bad behavior.

[Ath192]

I also want to make a point that FFXI is about to celebrate its 20 year anniversary and in large part that game is alive because of how difficult it was, and the bonds the players formed with each other to overcome obstacles and work together.

[Artemiz]

I also want to make a point that FFXI is about to celebrate its 20 year anniversary and in large part that game is alive because of how difficult it was, and the bonds the players formed with each other to overcome obstacles and work together.

FFXI is still going thats for sure but even at its peak it was never anywhere near as popular as FFXIV is. Its very different in many ways but in my opinion one of the reasons its still going is the complexity of the gearing and its horizontal gear progression. There is almost always something you need, for one gear set or another.

Also, imagine how many people have quit due to its difficulty level, I've long ago lost count of how many people I knew who quit over farming kitty pants alone.

Almost all of the hardest content is now merc'd, and has been for years now.

[Ath192]

FFXI is still going thats for sure but even at its peak it was never anywhere near as popular as FFXIV is. Its very different in many ways but in my opinion one of the reasons its still going is the complexity of the gearing and its horizontal gear progression. There is almost always something you need, for one gear set or another.

Also, imagine how many people have quit due to its difficulty level, I've long ago lost count of how many people I knew who quit over farming kitty pants alone.

Almost all of the hardest content is now merc'd, and has been for years now.

So complexity of some sort keeps it going by your own admission, even if you disagree where that complexity comes from.

Here are some synonyms from the dictionary:

Synonyms for complexity:
complicacy, complication, convolution, difficulty, intricacy

[Artemiz]

So complexity of some sort keeps it going by your own admission, even if you disagree where that complexity comes from.

Here are some synonyms from the dictionary:

Synonyms for complexity:
complicacy, complication, convolution, difficulty, intricacy

You can play semantics all you want, it doesn't change the fact that this game is easier, more accessible and significantly more popular than FFXI. I've played FFXI for 15 years, I love that game so I'm not knocking it. Its just never been anything like as popular as FFXIV.

[Shurrikhan]

Here are some synonyms from the dictionary:

Synonyms for complexity:
complicacy, complication, convolution, difficulty, intricacy

Synonyms are rarely interchangeable in any involved context, however, so what is your point exactly?

[Nyarlha]

Time to repost YoshiP's interview from last May.

Naoki Yoshida: I’d like to refrain from giving away too many specifics at this time, but I think the chances of doing large-scale, challenging content is greater than creating high-difficulty content meant for smaller groups. It’s not that we are unable to create high-difficulty content for small groups, but currently I am a bit more hesitant with that direction overall.

In the case of a four-player high-difficulty dungeon, there is much less room for players to work with when it comes to party deaths or mistakes. If even a single party member is incapacitated or makes a mistake, it will invariably lead to a wipe, with not much leeway to save the run or come up with a creative solution. Another major reason is because our community continues to grow—naturally this is bringing in many casual players, and I believe that when looking at the bigger pictures, large-scale content will be easier for all players to get into.

If anything, one possibility might be high-difficulty floor(s) of the Deep Dungeon series… but please stay tuned for future announcements!

[Snorky]

Time to repost YoshiP's interview from last May.

I think what people are missing in this quote is what is the underlying goal of including as many types of players as possible. This is the goal and focus. Being harder doesn't make something better. He wants 4 man accessable to all types of players.

[HappyHubris]

In the case of a four-player high-difficulty dungeon, there is much less room for players to work with when it comes to party deaths or mistakes. If even a single party member is incapacitated or makes a mistake, it will invariably lead to a wipe, with not much leeway to save the run or come up with a creative solution.

That's....the entire point of tough content.

It's like saying that adding peppers to a spicy dish is to be avoided, because it might end up spicy.

[Ath192]

Synonyms are rarely interchangeable in any involved context, however, so what is your point exactly?

That people like difficulty and involvement in content they love. And simplicity and ease only make for a forgettable experience. As such, they should make FFXIV more challenging because the game is too easy.

For example here is a video of a Warrior Soloing Paglth'an, the latest dungeon available to players and part of the so called "Expert" duty roulette.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMgTambpkRc

I don't know about you but knowing the content is so easy a single person can mow through the entire dungeon without any aid defeats the purpose of having a team or playing multiplayer. It's also very sad as a party member knowing you are just there just because, its not like they need you or anything. You want to help? great, You want to sit down and not do anything? They'll keep going just fine. Your presence is meaningless to a good tank with self heals or two players that know how to handle things.

It's a very empty feeling to be in a game and knowing the content is so easy you do not matter at all.

You apparently need to be an "extreme" level player or above to begin to matter. I don't think anyone can look at those labels and agree with a serious face. I also don't say this because I dislike the game, I say this because I want it to improve.