Dungeons we need to talk dungeons

[SamsaraTrickstar]

Dungeons are primarily for advancing the MSQ.

but they don't need to be and was not for the msq all the time. there was msq dungeons (its ok to make them easy) and there was side story dungeons (this the one that need to be harder). what's more they got the solo instances now for msq and they work much better.

A dungeon will never be considered EX unless some kind of hard enrage is attached to it, and players go into them knowing that a clear is unlikely. This will also be 4-man making the margin for error even less forgiving than 8-man EX content. It will also make getting through the trash more cumbersome, and all the trips back to the most recent checkpoint in the dungeon will drive the masses bonkers.

Does this still sound like something you want?

yes. but it don't need to go Ex to be harder that what we got now.

I was wondering when this response was going to come. I don't understand the mentality of 'well if they can't do it the way I want why are they bothering doing it?'. There are people who actually enjoy the current dungeons, and for the most part the current dungeons help move the story along very well. That is why the continue with dungeons. The only reason tomes are attached to dungeons and the roulettes is to ensure people keep running them so that new players don't sit in endless queues. Removing the tomes from the dungeon will only make people run them once, maybe a few times for glam. And then nothing. Instead of asking for changes to the current dungeons and then using this asinine reasoning of just get rid of it if it isn't how you like, why not advocate for a separate content? 4-man exploration delves or something like that?

but i do advocate for harder dungeons that be separated content, at what point i asked to stop make the cornet baby mode dungeons? as me asking what the point at all to make them like now is that people are forces to run them and its really getting toxic in there fast as people hate it. as for the msq they don't need dungeons for it this days. as well are you saying we get less msq in Shb that in 2.x or in 3.x or in 4.x?

[Vrankyl]

but they don't need to be and was not for the msq all the time. there was msq dungeons (its ok to make them easy) and there was side story dungeons (this the one that need to be harder). what's more they got the solo instances now for msq and they work much better.

yes. but it don't need to go Ex to be harder that what we got now.

but i do advocate for harder dungeons that be separated content, at what point i asked to stop make the cornet baby mode dungeons? as me asking what the point at all to make them like now is that people are forces to run them and its really getting toxic in there fast as people hate it. as for the msq they don't need dungeons for it this days. as well are you saying we get less msq in Shb that in 2.x or in 3.x or in 4.x?

No one is saying we got less MSQ in ShB, if anything we got more. Just because the dungeons are being used more for storytelling than they have before doesn't mean we are getting less MSQ. I am not sure where you are getting that idea from. If you look at the evolution over time you would be able to see that side story dungeons have been fewer and fewer. This expac all dungeons were MSQ related for the most part. SB the only none MSQ related ones were the Four Lords Dungeons. It's clear this is the direction that SE has for the dungeons. As for what point did you ask for them to stop making them? You did right here:

why even do dungeons. jus stop and give free daily tomes, don't waste people time.

This is asking for them to stop making dungeons and just give people the tomes. Nor does it really force people to run them. There are many other ways to get the tomes. Hunts, Bozja, maps, Beast Tribes, etc. You don't need to do dungeons. Nor is it getting toxic. I run dungeons constantly for glam and tomes and it has not gotten toxic in the slightest. I can count on one hand where speed caused an issue, and it was because the tank was overpulling and not adjusting to the group.

[Vrankyl]

well i think that at this point if they are not willing to do it as some say. why even do dungeons. jus stop and give free daily tomes, don't waste people time.

I was wondering when this response was going to come. I don't understand the mentality of 'well if they can't do it the way I want why are they bothering doing it?'. There are people who actually enjoy the current dungeons, and for the most part the current dungeons help move the story along very well. That is why the continue with dungeons. The only reason tomes are attached to dungeons and the roulettes is to ensure people keep running them so that new players don't sit in endless queues. Removing the tomes from the dungeon will only make people run them once, maybe a few times for glam. And then nothing. Instead of asking for changes to the current dungeons and then using this asinine reasoning of just get rid of it if it isn't how you like, why not advocate for a separate content? 4-man exploration delves or something like that?

[SamsaraTrickstar]

then they will run it np. just don't rush and hate it. as i say there more ways to get tomes and hunts are normally faster if you a dps.

[Gemina]

I want them to make a extream dungeon of all the dungeons in game. Where you need to be max level and close to bis to do them.have mechanics in them be harder and not let you ignore them.
So what you think?

A dungeon will never be considered EX unless some kind of hard enrage is attached to it, and players go into them knowing that a clear is unlikely. This will also be 4-man making the margin for error even less forgiving than 8-man EX content. It will also make getting through the trash more cumbersome, and all the trips back to the most recent checkpoint in the dungeon will drive the masses bonkers.

Does this still sound like something you want?

[Asari5]

yeah... dungeons got so streamlined (for quite some time) they are mainly for msq progress... but because of that there is no reason anymore fir it being groupcontent

[Illmaeran]

I won't lie, my favorite dungeon-delving content ever were the vanilla/classic WoW dungeons precisely because they were relatively large and/or required coordinated CC and tanking. If I'm understanding peoples' sentiment, they're seeking "harder" dungeons along the veins of Stratholme, Blackrock Mountain, and Blackrock Spire. These dungeons are absolutely more engaging and require a level of party cohesion that's generally missing in current MMO design, regardless of the game.

While I would love to see dungeon design like this again, the gaming community has changed enough over the almost 20 years (!!!) the genre's been more widespread and design has changed with it. Gone are the days when being in a guild was essentially required to complete content and such content has gone with them. In order to meet the desires of the current community, designers have had to emphasize content an individual can do when run with a randomly assigned group while still having things that require guilds/statics to run. It's just a sad (for we old-timers) fact of life.

It means that regular dungeons are going to be less engaging, read "easy", and people that desire more engaging content will have to be content with EX and Savage for a challenge.

As much as I'd love a return to dungeons requiring coordination, we no longer have enough CC in our kits to handle that sort of stuff so the "go go go SMASH" is about our only option. I wish it weren't so, but it is.

[Jirah]

I want to ask a very important question to all oppose, what would Dungeons lose if they added a few more mechanics and variables?

I’m gonna assume everyone here has cleared 80 content so I don’t understand this stubbornness of progression and so far all the arguments aren’t very well told.

“It’s not supposed to be hard” it’s not, but it is supposed to be fun, and unless your the healer it rarely feels engaging

“It’s MSQ progression nothing more” I think your describing solo instances but ok

“It would make Roulettes longer than they need to be” Reality check! Good content isn’t supposed to be rushed. As someone stated before, the best thing about content isn’t supposed to be finishing it. Also if tomes are that vital (which in all seriousness, it isn’t as MSQ gives you ilvl gear anyways so unless you plan on raiding you shouldn’t care?) you have about 7 other roulettes to do.

“Nothing is fun when doing it 50 times in a row” Agree to disagree, then stop doing it 50 times? As I said I’ve never done expert roulette because it’s boring but always cap out from trials and raid trials anyways.

“I don’t want to try” please tell me the devs are catering to this coffee stain of a demographic? I’m sure their are plenty of automated MMOs on iOS devices, try those if you don’t wanna do basic inputs. Also theirs always trusts

“I don’t play the game for the MMO, but for the narrative and don’t like cooperation”
Fair enough but again trusts, and also maybe try other games as I don’t think it’s healthy to force a multiplayer genre into catering solo players.

“Go play EX/Savage if you want difficulty”
No, hyperbole aside we don’t want 4 man savage as I’m sure it’ll be hard on the healer. And last I checked those are platform fights, dungeons you explore and have more environmental aspects which are absent in raids, and apparently dungeons too.

Your comments are valid but I just don’t see this argument as one sided. It’s not gonna kill you or the game to add a few touches to the content.

[Vrankyl]

I want to ask a very important question to all oppose, what would Dungeons lose if they added a few more mechanics and variables?

It depends on how far the mechanics and variables go. There is no easy way to answer this without seeing how far. If they return to ARR Hard difficulties you run the risk of making it that much harder for new people to complete because veterans will just skip that dungeon. It would only work if you give that treatment to all of them, but remember the MSQ dungeons have to be able to be completed with Trusts so you can't get too crazy.

So in turn this brings in a question of, what do the dungeons gain? What additional changes do you think would make it better? For everyone that answer is different. Some want alternate paths, which would be a waste of dev resources because the vast majority of the player base will figure out the optimal route and ignore all else. More trash? Trash with more mechanics? What does that give it other than the feeling that you are wasting time on mobs that give you nothing and are nothing more than HP sponges with more mechanics. Sure the healer and the tank might get more enjoyment but what do the DPS (who are by far the largest part of the playerbase) get? Or do you want harder bosses? Which a case could be made that they could tune the bosses better to reflect the actual ilvl, but that would have to be balanced out with the expected ilvl new players would have getting to that dungeon.

[RitsukoSonoda]

It depends on how far the mechanics and variables go. There is no easy way to answer this without seeing how far. If they return to ARR Hard difficulties you run the risk of making it that much harder for new people to complete because veterans will just skip that dungeon. It would only work if you give that treatment to all of them, but remember the MSQ dungeons have to be able to be completed with Trusts so you can't get too crazy.

So in turn this brings in a question of, what do the dungeons gain? What additional changes do you think would make it better? For everyone that answer is different. Some want alternate paths, which would be a waste of dev resources because the vast majority of the player base will figure out the optimal route and ignore all else. More trash? Trash with more mechanics? What does that give it other than the feeling that you are wasting time on mobs that give you nothing and are nothing more than HP sponges with more mechanics. Sure the healer and the tank might get more enjoyment but what do the DPS (who are by far the largest part of the playerbase) get? Or do you want harder bosses? Which a case could be made that they could tune the bosses better to reflect the actual ilvl, but that would have to be balanced out with the expected ilvl new players would have getting to that dungeon.

The main thing would be consistency. People only skip duties in a roulette if there isn't consistency in the experience. Generally the people bailing on roulette queues do it when they get a duty that requires more effort, time, or attention than the others in that roulette. The harder part I think though would likely be coming up with new mechanics and variables so the ones we have don't end up feeling overused.