Flaws of the combat system

[ToodlesElNoodles]

Maybe high-end duties (Savage, Extremes, Unreal) should be it’s own unique content like PvP and players get to use an endgame hotbar.

Endgame elitist folks get their cake and casual folks can still eat their’s too.

Those high-end duties aren’t canonical anyway, so who cares if they have a different kit.

[Jeeqbit]

High-end duties are far more busy for tanks already. Bosses go from being something you sleep through to requiring mitigation for tank busters, tank swaps, proper boss positioning, lots of tank-specific mechanics, doing mechanics meant for other roles so the other roles can DPS, party mitigation when the content is new. In addition to doing all the mechanics that the entire party has to do. There isn't a need for further aggro management in that content because the game gives us plenty of other things to do.

[Tsukino]

I definitely miss the days of old-school MMOs like FFXI where it was impossible for tanks to hold hate on anything if a damage dealer was going all out or a healer was just blindly topping off the HP of anyone who took any damage immediately. It was everyone's job to manage their own hate and keep the enemy on the tank. Not only did this make everyone's job much more engaging without making them hit 50 buttons in some arcane "rotation," but it also made it so that everyone really had to learn what they needed to do to contribute to the group, because not doing so would get either yourself or everyone killed and it was very obvious. There was also way less emphasis on just damage and speed above all else, because there were effective caps on those things being useful instead of detrimental.

But realistically I know that they'd never be able to make XIV or any game now like that. A tiny amount of people would love that it did something like that, but the other 95% of people who play now because the game is fun and super accessible and easy to get into would all quit and then the game would die without them. There's a reason that none of those old MMOs like EverQuest or Asheron's Call or FFXI had anywhere near the number of subscribers as WoW or FFXIV.

[LioJen]

There's a reason that none of those old MMOs like EverQuest or Asheron's Call or FFXI had anywhere near the number of subscribers as WoW or FFXIV.

That might also have a lot to do with the lack of reliable internet connection for most of the world in the early 2000s. Broadband was still new and novel (and expensive), and PC building was still a niche geek pastime so your average Hewlett-Packard prebuilt couldn't handle anything more intense than Solitaire. There are simply much more people into gaming now, with high speed internet and computers/consoles strong enough to run an MMO.

[Poporito_Popoto]

That might also have a lot to do with the lack of reliable internet connection for most of the world in the early 2000s. Broadband was still new and novel (and expensive), and PC building was still a niche geek pastime so your average Hewlett-Packard prebuilt couldn't handle anything more intense than Solitaire. There are simply much more people into gaming now, with high speed internet and computers/consoles strong enough to run an MMO.

WoW was released in 2004. People were tired of the difficulty of EQ.

[TaleraRistain]

That might also have a lot to do with the lack of reliable internet connection for most of the world in the early 2000s. Broadband was still new and novel (and expensive), and PC building was still a niche geek pastime so your average Hewlett-Packard prebuilt couldn't handle anything more intense than Solitaire. There are simply much more people into gaming now, with high speed internet and computers/consoles strong enough to run an MMO.

I played EQ on a Compaq prebuilt.

There was definitely a tiring of the EQ formula in 2004 when EQII came out and was rather popular. It wasn't just internet connection or potato PCs. People were tired of having to group for everything, which is why one of EQII's main advertised draws was specific solo, group, and raid content. Still ran into ceilings on solo and group content, but it was the novelty that it even existed as a specific playstyle that was incredibly attractive.

There is no personal responsibility in this game. They never want to have a situation where failure or success is one person's fault in particular. There can't be any nuance to the combat as long as this philosophy remains. Opportunities for individual players to stand out are purposefully crushed at any opportunity.

I get the feeling you don't PUG much.

[Boizinho]

What it all boils down to is that the devs adamantly refuse to let what other players do have a real impact on your experience. We can't have tanks actually taking damage because that means their lives are in the hands of the healer. We can't have support DPS actually supporting because that means the encounter is harder if they just refuse to do it. We can't have Esuna have any purpose whatsoever because the existence of an Esuna-able debuff comes with the existence of a healer, somewhere, that won't dispel it. In Savage, if someone fails a mechanic, either they blow up or the entire party wipes, because recoverable mistakes create a skill gap between bad healers and good ones. So does randomized damage, which is why encounters are designed to be so scripted the healing and tanking portions can pretty much both be done completely blindfolded.

There is no personal responsibility in this game. They never want to have a situation where failure or success is one person's fault in particular. There can't be any nuance to the combat as long as this philosophy remains. Opportunities for individual players to stand out are purposefully crushed at any opportunity.

[Lanadra]

What it all boils down to is that the devs adamantly refuse to let what other players do have a real impact on your experience. We can't have tanks actually taking damage because that means their lives are in the hands of the healer. We can't have support DPS actually supporting because that means the encounter is harder if they just refuse to do it. We can't have Esuna have any purpose whatsoever because the existence of an Esuna-able debuff comes with the existence of a healer, somewhere, that won't dispel it. In Savage, if someone fails a mechanic, either they blow up or the entire party wipes, because recoverable mistakes create a skill gap between bad healers and good ones. So does randomized damage, which is why encounters are designed to be so scripted the healing and tanking portions can pretty much both be done completely blindfolded.

There is no personal responsibility in this game. They never want to have a situation where failure or success is one person's fault in particular. There can't be any nuance to the combat as long as this philosophy remains. Opportunities for individual players to stand out are purposefully crushed at any opportunity.

Precisely.. and as far as anything not made with challenge as the focus goes.. that is exactly how Yoshi P intends for it to be. The very bottom of the barrel is who must still be able to clear anything required by the story. There's plenty of people on this very forum who absolutely hate it, either because it means they may run into someone in the DF that doesn't meet their standards, or because anything not Savage or Ultimate is just boring to them.

Additionally.. as plenty of us will know, Yoshi P is also on record stating that yes.. he does in fact expect better players to pick up the slack for worse ones. What we more commonly call 'carrying'.

[Vahlnir]

Opportunities for individual players to stand out are purposefully crushed at any opportunity.

Except for, you know, Savage. And Extreme. And Ultimate. I think you are overexaggerating here a bit.

[Jeeqbit]

We can't have tanks actually taking damage because that means their lives are in the hands of the healer. We can't have support DPS actually supporting because that means the encounter is harder if they just refuse to do it. We can't have Esuna have any purpose whatsoever because the existence of an Esuna-able debuff comes with the existence of a healer, somewhere, that won't dispel it.

Tanks don't take damage (in dungeons specifically) if they don't pull much. They have the choice to make themselves take damage and be more in the hands of the healer by pulling multiple packs. In other content like trials and raids it's just not true that tanks "don't take damage" because they usually won't stand much chance of soloing those.

Support classes can support, and it does prevent people dying or increase their damage if used right. If they "refuse to do it" then what happens is an unnecessary death happens or the fight takes longer.

Esuna is not necessary in almost any dungeon or normal content. In O4 people die if healers do not Esuna on Doom, but they usually just res them instead. Esuna can be important in savage when it releases, but that may not be noticed if the content is done late with better gear.

In Savage, if someone fails a mechanic, either they blow up or the entire party wipes, because recoverable mistakes create a skill gap between bad healers and good ones.

Recoverable mistakes just make it easier. That is why extreme is easier. There are more opportunities for you to recover.

So does randomized damage, which is why encounters are designed to be so scripted the healing and tanking portions can pretty much both be done completely blindfolded.

Scripted fights mean you can feel good at it. I like to be able to confidently say "I know the fight" years later. If it's random then it could be a completely different fight the next time.