What's next for new jobs after Endwalker.

[Garnix]

Honestly, the list of possible weapons is endless.
All that matters is how they find ways to implement them in game.
For example, you forgot :
- the geomancer's bell,
- the crossbow,
- dices (yes I want a gambler job, I don't mind if it is limited),
- puppets :P
- FF9's Zidane weapon (though it is quite similar to the Judge's dual weapon I guess)
- nunchaku (although maybe we can count this in your polearm category)
- more ridiculous/unexpected things. (nobody saw Sage coming, though I guess your "Reflector" category can fit in there)

Weapon archetypes barely matters really...
And I still think a second gunner job would make sense, considering how MCH is focusing more and more on his tools/machines.
Though, if corsair happens, I would personally prefer having a 'double pistols class' to be fair. That's what we see from Merlwyb, so...

[ZelrothDenathrius]

a reaper like caster would be good like a void mage or something? or voidmancer

[SeverianLyonesse]

Weapon archetypes barely matters really...

I heavily disagree with this ontological frivolity. Just because a casual player can list off weapons with two seconds of thought does not mean that every weapon design has potential to be refined into something of the caliber of FF XIV's job design. Good design as we have seen in FFXIV requires researching, assembling, vetting, harmonizing ideas in a way that creates an original, faceted whole. It's not and has never been as simple as throwing out "Viking" or "dual pistols" and believing that the devs have an endless wealth of ingenuity to fill in the 99% percent of the design and contextual considerations that you lacked the imagination and discipline to reason out yourself. Art does not just "make itself" for you to consume--in many cases, and definitely in XIV's case--these things are far more considered than just shitting ideas into a forum and trusting the myth of man's omnipotence will manifest them.

I don't see a lot of these happening, simply because they don't match the same level of spectacle and gimmickry that FF XIV job design is selling itself around.

Every expansion has had at least one really out-of-the-box weapon design:

* Astrolabe
* Rapier + Focus Staff
* Gunblade
* Wings/Fins

And if you look at the remaining jobs, they tend to be DPS with very dynamic slashy weapons that afford unique and "weighty" attack animations:

* Greatsword ("heavy")
* Katana ("flurry")
* Chakrams ("flurry")
* Warscythe ("heavy/flurry")

In both cases, they also need to be large and stylized enough to afford enough creativity when designing weapon skins. XIV is an extremely visuals-oriented game and weapon glams are a major component of the job fantasy appeal.

So, looking at some of your proposals:

* Geomancer bell - kinda boring. Not a very original/complicated/flashy weapon design like the first category. Not a very dynamic/weighty weapon like the second category. Overall not very engaging and not encouraging much by way of versatile visual design, be it the weapon itself or the animations. It might have been fine three expansions ago, but it's just not a very "hype" weapon that would keep XIV's momentum going. I don't expect to see it at all, barring a final expansion wrapping things up. Also, GEO lore is just too convoluted a job fantasy and just feels like a confused retread of AST/WHM that would play mostly like SMN. We could maaaaaaybe get a greathammer/bell weapon design with a tanky feel, but it feels like it might be stretching a bit...and on top of that expressly goes against the established GEO weapon design from Swallow's Compass (also, rule of thumb: if a job has already appeared in XIV as an enemy design--and especially if it has underwhelming weapon design choices like BST or PUP--that is practically a tacit admission that we aren't getting that job anytime soon, if ever).

* Dice - Also doesn't hit either category well: Not flashy, and not weighty. Also far too small to design cool-looking weapon variants. I could see some sort of cannoneer or the like getting like *one* "big dice" shot, and even that isn't likely because XIV is killing job randomness left and right. Not gonna happen.

* Zidane weapon and nunchaku - both occupy a similar space in that by themselves they are pretty basic and unexciting, certainly not on the level of a Gunblade, Nouliths, or Warscythe. Both and especially the Zidane weapon kind of tread on NIN's job fantasy. Both might work as a *jumping off* point, but as you observed by themselves are underwhelming and unlikely. I would expect any sort of "nunchaku" to be combined with a staff and/or whip/flail design to open up design space. And I would expect a Zidane weapon to be combinable ala a Judge weapon (which, again, could go in the direction of incorporating "staff" attacks, or as I previously observed, possibly sharing design space with hammers and clubs).

* Crossbow - Not as bad the others, but when you account for MCH having pistols and BRD having bows, what is left does not feel like we are getting much potential for a distinct weapon design and attack animation niche. Because of how much it is treading on MCH/BRD job fantasies, I would sooner expect the devs to move any sort of crossbow design into cannon/bazooka territory.

* Puppets - Probably not gonna happen. There is a slim chance we may see a modular pet job in a limited capacity (in fact I think that is more likely and a better direction to take a P-ranged limited job than BST). But I do not expect it to be the PUP fantasy when MCH has automatons and RPR covers the Necro fantasy. Also, with respect to the above points: not really a weapon, and not very dynamic/engaging. In fact I think this may be one of the biggest reasons why we will never have more pet jobs: an implied theme underlying pet job complaints is that they are fairly non-interactive in a game that is extremely attack/DPS-oriented in a way XI never was. Just standing there and rooting for your pet just isn't very fun.

Also, like I said, "double pistol" likely isn't happening because most of MCH's weapons are already called "pistols" or "revolvers". The devs have overall been very consistent about limiting weapon naming conventions to be associated with only one job, and it is very clear that MCH is *the* pistol job.

Again, none of these are "ruled out" as long as the game continues to be developed. But as long as stronger (and more marketable) design concepts exist like whips or Blitzballs the devs are going to be hammering those out first. Especially for 7.0 because they really need to rein back in all the player goodwill and establish that the game will continue to be exciting after the main story.

[ty_taurus]

* Puppets - Probably not gonna happen. There is a slim chance we may see a modular pet job in a limited capacity (in fact I think that is more likely and a better direction to take a P-ranged limited job than BST). But I do not expect it to be the PUP fantasy when MCH has automatons and RPR covers the Necro fantasy. Also, with respect to the above points: not really a weapon, and not very dynamic/engaging. In fact I think this may be one of the biggest reasons why we will never have more pet jobs: an implied theme underlying pet job complaints is that they are fairly non-interactive in a game that is extremely attack/DPS-oriented in a way XI never was. Just standing there and rooting for your pet just isn't very fun.

May I introduce you to Anise from Tales of the Abyss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMp8NbTkNWY

But in all seriousness, how you design and stylize a weapon and actions has a lot more creative freedom over just the general shape, and we don't need to have puppets be pets in order to see Puppetmaster as a job. I recognize that that's how it was done in XI, but this isn't XI. RDM is a job that took inspiration from it's roots, but flipped its combat style on its head in order to make it a job that worked within the constraints of XIV's encounter design. This is entirely possible to do with bells, puppets, playing cards, crossbows, etc.

[SeverianLyonesse]

May I introduce you to Anise from Tales of the Abyss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMp8NbTkNWY

But in all seriousness, how you design and stylize a weapon and actions has a lot more creative freedom over just the general shape, and we don't need to have puppets be pets in order to see Puppetmaster as a job. I recognize that that's how it was done in XI, but this isn't XI. RDM is a job that took inspiration from it's roots, but flipped its combat style on its head in order to make it a job that worked within the constraints of XIV's encounter design. This is entirely possible to do with bells, puppets, playing cards, crossbows, etc.

I am talking about more than shape. I'm talking about overall cohesive, dynamic job actions.

Telling a puppet what to do isn't engaging. However, your video does illustrate that maybe a limited "mech suit" or "robot mount" job idea might fill the puppetmaster niche in a way that is more dynamic while still affording players the "modular robot" experience from XI. And could already capitalize on the gear slot system in place, just with gear that is actually more consequential than being BIS stat sticks (something that several players already observe is quite boring about standard FF XIV gearing).

Riding a giant stuffed animal? No thanks, I'm good.

[Garnix]

So you lack creativity, and are ruling out all my examples because you think the devs cannot imagine flashy and cool things with "dull weapons".
The animations/visual effects matter a lot more than the weapon itself. And the combat style is typically not linked to the weapon at all. I mean, you could give a Nunchaku to the Ninja, it could still play exactly the same.
The only thing for which the weapon matters, as you said, is marketing.

But...even that...was "throwing Chakrams" used as the marketing element? Or was it the word "dancer"? People just wanted Dancer to be in and could not care less whether it had Chakrams, a whip, or even pieces of fabric.

Dual handguns naming is barely an issue really. If it was, they would have changed Summoner or Scholar weapon a long time ago. If they can come up with names for those, they can come up with a lot more names for guns. They could even go and make them magic guns to make sure the confusion is avoided.

Now are we going to get a Whip? Probably. It's highly requested.
But still....it all relies on the devs' creativity, not on the weapon archetypes.

[Jirah]

All in favor of no jobs and take a expansion to re-evaluate current jobs! More they add the more they take away from other jobs and I personally would like to see a lot of current jobs be fleshed out rather than being left in the dust, jobs like SCH, DRK, WHM, MCH, SMN, NIN, DNC, BRD ect

[SeverianLyonesse]

But still....it all relies on the devs' creativity, not on the weapon archetypes.

Creativity can only go so far with an uncreative idea. Chakrams represent probably about the lower limit for what the devs would want to bother making work. You are right that they aren't very interesting. But the fact that:

* We didn't have a thrown weapon archetype yet;
* They facilitated pretty dynamic character animations (for an as-yet unincluded distinct and popular class archetype); and
* They just barely eeked by a dynamic/weighty playstyle by allowing some "flurry" moves;

they just barely satisfied the job design standard we have seen consistent across the expansions' job designs: prioritizing direct, thuddy spectacle over more subtle or passive styles of gameplay.

More to the point: we did not get dancer as we new it from earlier installments. A dancer that just sits on the sidelines as support does not suit FF XIV. DNC would never have been included as a job if they hadn't been able to find a suitably engaging weapon to match it.

As for the naming, it absolutely is a "thing" that the job designs are extremely focused around weapon archetypes, and it makes sense when each job has a weapon template that it bases all of the jobs' animations around. It is why each job has their "wheelhouse" that to date no new job has ever really treaded toes on.

Listed roughly in order of commonality, with the most common archetypes bolded:

* PLD - sword, bastard sword, longsword, spatha, winglet, broadsword (shamshir, falchion, macahuitl, blade - a few)
* WAR - axe, battleaxe, greataxe, waraxe, labrys, bardiche, bhuj (hammer, warhammer)
* DRK - greatsword, claymore, zweihander, guillotine, faussar, estramacon, edge (blade - 1)
* GNB - gunblade, bayonet, manatrigger, sawback
* WHM - cane, crook, wand, gavel, radical (rod, staff - a few)
* SCH - codex (song)
* AST - star globe, planisphere, torquetum, orrery, ephemeris
* SGE - milpreves, pendulums, wings (syrinxi, dzi)
* DRG - spear, halberd, lance, pike, trident, guisarme, partisan, harpoon, bident (glaive - 1)
* RPR - scythe, warscythe, sickle, crux, zaghnal, war talon (slicer)
* MNK - knuckles, hora, baghnakhs, claws, cesti, tonfa, tekko, takars, patas, fists (chakrams - 1)
* SAM - blade, "samurai blade", katana, uchigatana (tachi)
* NIN - daggers, knives, mogknives, cleavers, kunai, sword breakers (claws - 1, machetes, kris, stilettos, baselards, pugiones)
* BRD - bow, longbow, shortbow, composite bow, harp bow
* MCH - pistol, revolver, handgonne, flintlock, arquebus, blunderbuss, musketoon, carbine (culverin)
* DNC - chakrams, tathlums, glaives, twashtar, wheels
* BLM - staff, rod, scepter, longpole
* SMN - index, grimoire (word)
* RDM - rapier, tuck, foil, hanger (vorpal sword - 1)

This is how it is with *every* job. They have one or two common weapon names/types that cover at least half of their available arsenal, plus some additional variants. There is practically no overlap between classes, and when there is it is almost always a one- or two-off (MNK - DNC's chakram; DRG - DNC's glaive, NIN - MNK's claws) or an extremely basic archetype that still didn't really bleed over much (PLD and DRK - SAM's blade; WHM - BLM's staff/rod). We can give the grand total of *three* DNC or SAM weapons a pass because those jobs hadn't even been developed yet when the MNK/DRG weapons were made. And we can give BLM's rods/staffs some sort of pass because the WHM weapons are from very early in the game, back when cross-classing existed and to this day WHM and BLM are the only jobs to share the same weapon template. So really, across the entire arsenal, only ONE weapon -- NIN's "claws" that it stole from MNK -- was deliberate cross-class terminology.

What I am trying to get across to you is that MCH is *defined* by having pistols and revolvers. They are not a one-off weapon design that could be split off into a new class like chakrams/glaives or that one bayonet MCH had. They *literally* (as in, by the letter) make up half the MCH's arsenal, and the other half of its arsenal is largely made up of variants on same. MCH is the pistol job. It does the shooties like a pistol job would, and having two pistols would not change the core animations/gameplay *that* much. And this is why every new job has had a distinct, untapped weapon archetype--because it makes it so much easier for the devs to make the job different from existing jobs.

We are not getting another pistol job, at least not while other untapped design space like whips, mauls, clubs, etc. are explored. There is no incentive for the developers to break a ten year precedent when they don't have to yet. There is no reason to risk the success of the next expansion on a design that feels *derivative* or *iterative* on things already in the game, when they still have totally fresh ideas that tend to appeal to players' desire for novelty and creativity.

Give me some gunner concept that doesn't require pistols/revolvers/handgonnes/flintlocks as the main weapon of choice, and maybe we can start making an argument for them. But as long as there is just easier and more innovative design space, "dual pistols" is only half an original idea and I would never expect to see it until much later in development after all the better ideas had been implemented. And frankly if we ever got to that point I would much rather prefer the devs not introduce new jobs--instead of making an underwhelming dual pistol job (or any underwhelming job), I would rather the devs put that effort into making MCH the best version of a pistol job it could be.

(also, I can't really say either way how likely NIN nunchuks are, but I would lean toward no since the weapon template is (a) two-handed and (b) doesn't seem to allow for the flail-like physics. But I would probably prefer NIN get nunchuks as a weapon variant if possible because it makes more sense than trying to make a second nunchuk job not feel like a ninja)

[ty_taurus]

I am talking about more than shape. I'm talking about overall cohesive, dynamic job actions.

Telling a puppet what to do isn't engaging. However, your video does illustrate that maybe a limited "mech suit" or "robot mount" job idea might fill the puppetmaster niche in a way that is more dynamic while still affording players the "modular robot" experience from XI. And could already capitalize on the gear slot system in place, just with gear that is actually more consequential than being BIS stat sticks (something that several players already observe is quite boring about standard FF XIV gearing).

Riding a giant stuffed animal? No thanks, I'm good.

It depends on how the puppet works really. What if you had a puppet that mimicked your actions, so you preform the animations from a distance, and the puppet copies you as a type of range weapon. That's how Ghepetto played in Shadow Hearts Covenant, an old turn-based RPG. It's a little difficult to find people using his attacks since he was a more magic oriented character, but I found this small example:

EDIT: Updated the link to a better resource

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXVhE5qQLPw

If you held your puppet and they jumped to life to animate with you, that also could be a direction to go in for the job. I just think our community has a difficult time looking based the most obvious iteration of a job's idea, often because of how it worked in a past title, but why limit ourselves?

[Grimoire-M]

I guess I'll chip in. To be honest I think they're going to scale back and only do one job from here on, and mostly fill in gaps. My expectation is Caster > Ranged > Melee, and then we'll see if they do another tank/healer or not.

Archetypes I expect to see:

Rune Fencer/Mystic Knight - Melee Scouting DPS - Twin/Energy Blade: Focused on empowering their weapons. Might borrow from Samurai's Sen combos or Black Mage/Summoner's elemental phases in order to accomplish that. Regardless I'd expect it to be faster paced and wind up more selfish than Ninja, though it'll probably still have a strong Raid DPS buff relative to the other melee. Likely coming from Thavnair.

Agent - Ranged DPS - Dice/Darts/Bombs: Uses a constantly depleting Push your Luck gauge and manages a priority-based rotation focused on getting it as high as possible then burning it for a burst phase. They might have a bizarre 2m cooldown that makes their opener consistent (think zero to a hundred) that can act as a recovery tool after death or let you push your damage further. Minor gambler/corsair elements. Lore-wise they're absolutely risk takers and would contrast Rogues/Shinobi by being spies that hide in plain sight. Could be from Garlemald proper, one of the provinces, or a new city state. Good candidate to not show up till later.

??? - Caster DPS - Poles/Whips/Talismans/Bells: If Summoner doesn't get its DoTs back, this'll be the DoT based caster. If it does, this will be something wholly unique. I don't think we can accurately predict this one with absolute certainty. The closest nudge I can think of is something involving Psychic abilities (which if it leans too hard on Telekinesis could wind up like Red Mage) or a bastardized form of Shamanism that leans somewhere between nature and 'generic dark caster' to get around the problems with Necromancer. Or we could get the same treatment Sage got with the healers and straight up get Warlock/Wizard/Witch as an 'advanced caster'. It really depends on what SE wants out of this slot. Given the overabundance of elemental spellcasters I want something opposite of that, personally. This is one that you'd have to go digging through what we have to get a good option, or we can expect something odd out of Elpis/Sharlayan. I don't think it'll get a raise either.



Archetypes I don't expect to see:
- Time Mage is covered by Astrologian. It's not done well but it's still in their shared flavor pool. That overlap rules it out.
- Beastmaster will likely be a limited job with Whips if it shows up at all. I don't think it will.
- As Ranger has significant overlap with Bard and Beastmaster, we are unlikely to see it at all.
- Geomancer is off the table because of how it connects to both Conjurer and Astrologian.
- Necromancer/Chemist are unlikely candidates to ever show up due to the nature of their cameos.
- Corsair won't happen because of how the piracy themes overlap with other jobs.
- Same logic with Ul'dah/Gold Saucer applies to Gambler.