A request for Endwalker Dungeons (No more Undertuned)

[KageTokage]

I mostly wish there were varied mechanics in the stretches between bosses more regularly.

99% of the trash mobs in the game just use basic telegraphed AoEs and/or instant attacks for extra tank damage, and unique trash mobs like the Amaurot bombs/dark sprites that encourage a kill priority should be the norm, not the exception.

Environmental hazards like the vines in Amdapor Keep hard or the steam vents in Sohm Ahl hard that are equally effective on both players and enemies alike also spice things up and should be more commonplace.

[Liam_Harper]

It's a shame there are no hard dungeons because it's a different type of gameplay entirely to raids, yet we're denied any depth to them. It's one of the few pieces of content where your aoe toolkit is actually a thing, where tank damage can be quite high and rotating cooldowns and making use of stuns or arm's length's slow is important.

Yet, instead dungeons are strictly limited to boring daily chores for tomes and story. It feels like a waste that the developers pour resources into something that becomes a 15 minute zerg that most people want done and over with as fast as possible.

I'll never understand why that's the best way to go. By all means have some easy story dungeons for MSQ purposes, but why do they all have to be like that?

[Lium]

I'm 32 with a full time job and back in school full time to finish my bachelor's degree.

Doesn't change my stance on not wanting dungeons to be brain dead.

Again, no one is asking for ex or savage level.

Just... Maybe something more along the lines of pharos Sirius when it released, or AK.

You know, make you think a bit. Them being slightly more difficult won't increase the time it takes to complete them much. In fact, the time it takes now is laughable. It used to take 35 minutes to get through leveling dungeons back in 2.0.

That's a slippery slope. As I understand it, Pharos Sirius was nerfed because so many people complained about it. The same thing happened in WoW during Cataclysm, and an entire MMO, WildStar, was literally shut down because - among its many problems - the content was intentionally hard.

I can understand where you're coming from to a degree, but making dungeons even a bit harder may lead to new dungeons becoming even more difficult down the road. And contrary to what the forums say, most people do not want that.

[Lium]

For "hard" content you have the optional content that SE make available to you - there is no need (nor desire in the Devs minds) to make MSQ harder as that will simply drive away many players who find it is no longer possible or enjoyable to progress in the time that they have available.

I'm very sorry for the double post, but this bears repeating.

For those of you looking for a greater challenge, that content exists. It is called Savage or Extreme. It was implemented into the game specifically for players who want to do more than steamroll through a dungeon. Saying you would like something in between Savage and normal dungeons is something I just don't know will ever happen because it's kind of like having your cake and eating it, too.

You have two options when it comes to content. You can do the normal/casual mode which is there for people that primarily want to experience the story or farm tomestones as fast as possible. Or you can do Savage/EX which will provide a greater challenge.

A third option actually exists: Hard mode. But that's rolled up into roulettes so most people don't seem to count that. But it's actually there.

I've always personally opposed the calls to make normal content more difficult when the devs have specifically put content in the game that is designed for more of a challenge.

[Axxion]

I'm very sorry for the double post, but this bears repeating.

For those of you looking for a greater challenge, that content exists. It is called Savage or Extreme. It was implemented into the game specifically for players who want to do more than steamroll through a dungeon. Saying you would like something in between Savage and normal dungeons is something I just don't know will ever happen because it's kind of like having your cake and eating it, too.

You have two options when it comes to content. You can do the normal/casual mode which is there for people that primarily want to experience the story or farm tomestones as fast as possible. Or you can do Savage/EX which will provide a greater challenge.

A third option actually exists: Hard mode. But that's rolled up into roulettes so most people don't seem to count that. But it's actually there.

I've always personally opposed the calls to make normal content more difficult when the devs have specifically put content in the game that is designed for more of a challenge.

So what about those that want midcore content? When i did savage back in hw. It was hard when you first progress. Once you have the fight down its not that bad/hard anymore.

[Lunalepsy]

We need something more challenging!

[Bearded]

You have something more challenging - its stuff outside of the MSQ.

Leave the MSQ alone and if you want "harder" stuff then unlock the harder versions and do that - it's not all that complicated.

[Roda]

That's a slippery slope. As I understand it, Pharos Sirius was nerfed because so many people complained about it. The same thing happened in WoW during Cataclysm, and an entire MMO, WildStar, was literally shut down because - among its many problems - the content was intentionally hard.

I can understand where you're coming from to a degree, but making dungeons even a bit harder may lead to new dungeons becoming even more difficult down the road. And contrary to what the forums say, most people do not want that.

Come on, citing a slippery slope as a reason to be against a view point is one of, if not the, most well known argumentative fallacies. I really hope I don't have to say that se won't be magically compelled to make dungeons ultimate levels of difficult by the time 10.0 rolls around do i?

And wildstar, contrary to the mythology surrounding the game, did not shut down because the game was "too hard". I played the game ultra casually at the start, 'cause housing in that game was a whole game unto itself and the dungeons/adventures were fun enough to keep my interest. Then I found that there were housing items in the raids, and well my fate was sealed. I was in a social guild that was partnered with an rp guild to form a casual raiding group and we made it through to the end beating the hardest raid encounters with clickers, keyboard turners, people who have never raided before this, people who have never played an mmo outside of rp, people who I swear thought a "rotation" was literally spinning your character as you used skills (that was a fun wipe), young people, old people, people with full time jobs, people whose jobs required them to be on call 24/7, and basically literally any kind of casual stereotype you could think of. So yeah no, it was a little bit more complex than the content being "too hard". (Short version, terrible advertising, literal hate and harassment campaigns on content creators trying the game out, poor leadership decisions causing the game to be delayed, redesigned, and released too early killing its hype cycle and under delivering, early layoffs before they could recover lost production ground after the early launch,the producer literally promising new content every month at launch holy shit, and the devs having to really stretch out grinds to extend gameplay because they released way too early. There's more, but those are the roots of it from what I saw)

(Don't wanna spam post this one point so)

Hence, why I said in regards to WildStar "among its many problems." Meaning that was only one of the reasons. I played WildStar in beta and at launch. I loved that game back in 2014.

I mean this post is literally contrary to the "it's too hard/inaccessible to casuals" claim. Wildstar's terrible advertising and bandaid grind gave off the impression that the content was inaccessibly difficult for the average player, but the content itself (the topic this thread is discussing) did not demand so much of the player that the people who have little time or experience couldn't complete it. Because like I said, I've played with clickers, collage kids, and full-time wokers+kids who have multiple avatus kills to their names. With enough encouragement to get past that "hardcores only" BS, class/role mentorship to hack through the arcane build systems, and enough support to speed up the pre-raid grind, career rpers and housing addicts (hello!) can see through the most energetic and complex raid encounters I've seen in a game.

Varied and engaging game mechanics are not gatekeepers.
And citing wildstar's gameplay as a primary reason for why it shut down is just as an unnuanced and inaccurate take as "1.0 shut down because the flowerpots had too many polygons." Both do a disservice to anyone who is actually wanting to learn from the mistakes of those two games.

Liking WildStar and not wanting this game's normal content to become more difficult are not mutually exclusive.

And that's the last thing I'm going to say about that particular topic.

K I didn't say it was, I just said that your claims didn't hold up to scrutiny.
by "this post" I mean the one you are reading, by me, this one, post #144. Hello. I Am The Post.

[Lium]

I mean this post is literally contrary to the "it's too hard/inaccessible to casuals" claim.

Liking WildStar and not wanting this game's normal content to become more difficult are not mutually exclusive.

And that's the last thing I'm going to say about that particular topic.

[Rinhi]

It doesn't serve the same purpose though.
A big 8 person boss fight is pretty different from a 4 person dungeon run.
And even if one enjoys EX and Savage content doesn't help roulettes (or even just story progression) not be a drag.

exactly, they are completely different things which makes it hella infuriating when people tell you to go do that when you want harder dungeons