A weary player sees hope in the new update

[Majidah]

The should make the DOW DOM exp curve higher and the DOL DOH lower.

Particullary DOL because it involves running around a lot, which would equal to having your enemies spread out through all the map...

They should also make DOL and DOH less of a grind and more interactive.

And they should make fights longer for DOW and DOM and add enfeebling skills which should be required to win fights in a manner that makes them exp worth it.

Anyway, the drop rate on avatar weapons suck. Plus you can't choose what you get.
Everyone has them because FF is full of geeks who spend countless hours grinding stuff.

Plus all what we see now is just a distraction for us till 2.0; all things considered I think its okay, for the time.

[Edgecrusher]

So. A week ago I logged on after the new patch, thinking it to be just another add-on to content that everyone can access with utter ease. In some ways I was right, but then I hit something. Something new, something that I've yet to see in FFXIV: a true challenge. What am I talking about? Why, the new Darksteel gear, of course. Now granted, it's practically useless right now with the jobs that can equip it (non-specialized classes for weapons, and only GLA/MRD for the armor), something that hopefully SE will soon chance in a future update (I think they mentioned this in patch notes?)

But that's not why I spent a huge quantity of time mining the materials, all HQ, and then sweating it out as I painstakingly made all three pieces of the Darksteel Armor. Nor did I make it for the money, either. I made it because, after looking at what it needs and actually making it myself, I can safely say it was by far the most challenging, nerve-wrecking experience I've yet to have in FFXIV. This includes all the battles. To be frank, this was the first time that the true nature of the Final Fantasy series has shown through on this game yet, and I TRULY hope that this is just the beginning..

So finding a node..pressing enter, then going back to make the armor (pressing enter again) is challenging, and nerve wrecking experience in XIV to you...i'd agree if i didn't max out bsm eating hot pockets and watching my last season of 24 on dvd..and yes i'm now finishing smallville while lvling arm....pressing enter 1,000,000 times isn't challenging, or nerve racking...it's just tedious as hell.

Now, I can already hear the naysayers coming, so I'll be frank. When you hear the term FF, what comes to mind? When you bought (if you bought) FF titles, WHY did you buy them? Personally, I bought them not for the storyline, or for the graphics, or for the shiny items. I bought them because FF has been known, and I hope will continue to be known, for making some of the most challenging experiences I have ever played as a gamer. THAT was, and is, the reason I play the FF franchise, and according to every other player I've spoken to, they are of the same opinion.

Okay...making a gold chocobo in VII was a nightmare...so was fighting the weapons, especially emerald if you were silly enough NOT to get the underwater materia. in VI if you climb mage's tower over an over, in a few hours you can learn all the spells from the espers once you have them all. in VIII you can just find one mob with fire junction all your characters and until you fight ultima and eden summon you really don't come across a challenge. in IV you can get cecil decked out and get his max sword once you have reflect. I'd go on...but i hope you get my point...unless you mean "you bought FF XI" for everything mentioned above...we'll just agree to disagree.

In FFXI, Square Enix fully embraced this ideal. But, for a comparison, let's sidetrack a moment to a game I tried before I played FFXI: WoW. I used the trial period to see what the game was about, and if it interested me. And it, I'll admit, interested me. For all of three days. The next day, I logged on, looked at my level 40 character, and paused.

Level 40.

Three days.

At the time, the cap was level 50. Something was wrong here, or at least something was wrong for me. Then I realized it. This game was for casual gamers...or those who like getting to high levels extremely fast. This did not pertain to me, and I quickly abandoned WoW, never to return..

the same thing goes on...frankly blatently as hell on here...i'm suprised you wish to hold out.

Now, back to FFXI. I remember quite vividly my first time logging on in San d'Oria, running out into West Ronfaure, and attacking a cute, innocent little bunny.

I also remember that same cute innocent little bunny thrashing my sorry butt all up and down those woods.

I cried tears of joy.

It was not because I'm a closet-masochist, but because I recognized a game that offered a challenge. An MMO that offered a challenge, even better. The more I played, the better it got. It had a very nice setup, and covered all types of gamers: casual, moderate, extreme, and then the utterly insane hardcore gamers, even (Pandemonium Warden, anyone?). I, being around the line of moderate/extreme gamer, got to experience things that left me satisfied, things like HNMs, and Sea, and Dynamis, and the gut-wrenching agony of failing my very first attempt at making Adamantine Armor, and the following feeling of utter accomplishment when I did make it. Yet, I'll admit I never experienced things like fighting Odin in Einherjar, or getting the shadow gear from Dynamis Lord, or having tons of jobs at 75.

But that was ok.

I didn't want to go that extreme, and I accepted the fact that as a consequence, I would never get those items either, nor experience the joys that each job had to offer.

Fair trade.

Likewise, the casual gamers of FFXI would be limited to mainly crafted gear and maybe one 75 job, since they were not willing to put in the time and effort others WERE willing to put in to do things like Sea, and Dynamis, and HNMs etc.

Once more, fair trade.

Now, let's move onto the crux of the matter, FFXIV. An example of the worrisome trends I've been seeing with this game: yesterday evening I was a 32 Blacksmith.

Today, as I'm writing this post, I'm a 38 Blacksmith well on his way to 39, and may very well be 41 by the time I log.

This is worrisome.

If I put in the same amount of time that I have this past day into a crafting job on FFXI, I may have gotten two levels. Two LOW levels. Higher levels? Maybe 0.6 of a level. If I was lucky, and only after spending nearly half a million gil, which was quite a bit on FFXI. And this is for the slowest leveled classes, the crafting classes (though DoL is very slow to, at least comparatively). The battle classes are, quite simply, laughable. At this point it's actually near WoW levels. If you put in a full day of battle leves, you could EASILY get a job from 1-25, possibly higher, in a day. If you manage to get a party, you get levels even faster. What this means, is that for non-casual gamers, they hit the top very, VERY quick. I've lost count of how many friends have quit this game because they raced to the top, only to find themselves utterly devoid of anything to do, and then left the game, never to return. They were used to FFXI, where it actually took some effort to get up to the top. Instead, they got there in days, a week at tops.

Another example. As I walk around Ul'dah these days, I would be very hard pressed to find someone that wasn't toting around a Primal weapon.

Everyone has them.

The supposed "top-tier" items in the game, and EVERYONE has them. Once again, something is wrong here. I'll admit, I don't have ANY primal weapons, nor do I honestly want one. Why? Because I see no point to it, and I can almost guarantee that when the AF weapons come out, they'll be just as good, if not better, than the Primal weapons. Now I'm not bashing the fights, I've done Ifrit and Garuda fights, and I've had fun on both, but what I am griping about is the ease in which one can enter these fights. For all intents and purposes, these fights are very similar to the BCNM (Burning-Cirlce-Notorious-Monster) or other equivalent fights of FFXI, only the requirements to enter these are absurdly easy. To fight Ifrit, you need five Inferno Totems. Which equates to killing five Amal'jaa at their stronghold. If you lose the fight, you keep the key item you get from the totems. This ends with people utterly spamming the fights nonstop, and the entire point of these supposedly epic battles is lost. On FFXI, if you lost the fight, you lost the items you traded to get in. Items which were nowhere NEAR as easy or numerous to get.

With all this said, we come full circle back to my hopes: the Darksteel items. Once more, they're practically all but useless until SE fixes which jobs can use them, but it's the concept behind the items that gives me hope. First off, all the synths involving darksteel are high 50s to 60, meaning they'll be at least mildly difficult, even with the best stuff/food/buffs. If this was it, it would just be another synthesis, and another disappointment. But then SE threw in the beautiful curve-ball: Each and every item of the Darksteel set has a part in it that MUST be HQ. It's NQ counterpart is utterly useless. This alone made everything much, MUCH harder. Now, not only is it a mildly difficult synthesis to just succeed, but you MUST make it a high quality (at least the component). With a synthesis that high level, you practically HAVE to have all HQ materials to even have a decent chance of succeeding. Then SE threw in yet another curve-ball. The Darksteel ingots. They have to be made with coke, an item that can only be found by purchase from an NPC, and only for 100,000 gil EACH. And the coke is a NQ item, meaning if the two other items were both HQ, you start out with at TOPS around 300 quality, and you're needing, or hoping, for an HQ ingot. Very difficult.

As one who has made the entire armor set, I can say with certainty that you can only obtain the set two ways: one, you are incredibly wealth and can afford to burn millions upon millions of gil to buy it, or two, you recognized the challenge for what it is and poured your time, money, and effort into it, and reaped the benefits, leaving you one satisfied crafter. This, obviously, is not for the casual gamer. Nothing about this stuff is casual, nor do I hope it ever becomes such. This is the FIRST time in FFXIV that I've seen it deviate from the wholly-casual gamer approach that it's been on ever since beta, and I dearly hope it continues. SE, if you're reading this, please do remember that your player base does not consist of only casual gamers, but many other types as well: making a successful MMO with a large player-base always needs to appeal to each 'tier' of gamer. And lastly, even though I'll most likely get flooded with whining/bashing/etc from the casuals, I say this: Do not expect to be able to access all the epic fights, and all the best armor, and all the best weapons, if you play casually. Why should you be granted such things when you play every now and then, while those who pour their time and effort into the game get shafted just because you want the new shiny sword, just without all the effort? It all comes down to balance: they choose to pour their time into this game, thus leaving little time for anything else. As a consequence, they reap the benefits on this game, but not in real life. You, on the other hand, put little into this game, and thus should receive little back. However, you have far more time to do other things than they do, thus you benefit here, while the extreme gamers do not. Balanced. If this still goes in one ear and out the other, and you STILL expect instant-satisfaction, and all game content for no effort, then go play a first-person-shooter, or WoW. I'm sure Blizzard would love to have you.

As for the rest of this...i can only say...if YOU want to sit and waste all of your playtime HQ'ing armor, (there are many more like you btw) that is of course your perogative. I already KNOW that crafting...farming anything i want to do in this game takes time if i want to learn and do it right...but..crafting is already tedious to me...not challenging (unless you're double/triple melding...i have yet to do a sucessful one. and of course the HQ which i think kudos to anyone who HQ's a full set of anything...i have yet to do this as well.) I sat for lord knows how long leveling bsm...then i got told a few patches ago "hey you maxed out but if you want a gold hammer go back to scratch and do it again!" ....i may honestly do it for bsm...possibly arm if i max it...but after that me and crafting are getting a well deserved divorce.

Do i want it all and want it now? No, but i think it's kind of....discourteous to say that if i say i disagree with your post...which i do, that i should just be deemed a "causal" and not ever see all the goodies you do. I say leave it as is beyond 2.0 if you want to retain a "challenge"...the system is as such it has already off-put alot of the instant gratification people...making the trek even more of a chore will turn off even me...and don't really mind crafting all that much.

Do i EXPECT to be rewarded for not putting effort..no, but i have fought ifrit...i stopped counting after i knew i was going to hit triple digits, and that was in febuary.and i started that chore in december i think...all i have is 3/7...alot of DM, and 5 totems. I helped a guy not to long ago...who not only got his first win with my group...but i think we went about 4 times...he got 2 weapons and a totem....if we do the math...i'm fighting him 100 times a month, and a guy who just showed up got almost the same ammount in his first few tries...that's just a boggling drop rate and frankly it should make me leave unless i like getting kicked my my coinpurse, but i haven't yet god knows why.

It's not a casual vs. hardcore thing to me...because i consider myself casual...i play when i can on nights days off and weekends...but put 100% into what i do so i do it as good as possible..so my having a job and the need to see sunlight should hinder my rewards? Sorry i do not agree, just because i want to go outside and walk my dog, does not give you licence to go "neener-neener i got a double meld"...especially when i DO play...i put in the effort..i just don't have the same ammount of time.

Do i want more for my time, sure...am i cutting corners..no...so why should i get the short end of the stick just because i want a life AND mmo play, both are not exclusive. I do not have much time to play so i do what i can and get what i can from it..i don't complain it takes too long...so what gives you the right to say "he's not on as much as me..so he should not get it no matter how long it takes"....especially if i show willingness to get it done? ...that to me is just plain douchebaggery.

[Lumara]

It is sad when players have been leaving for the reasons you have given. I miss a few people who I hope will get on again after the game revamps.. so it is in my hopes that the changes made will make them come back and stay. I do have to disagree that one only thinks of FF for mainly for the challenge. I like the stories in FF games, the designs, the fantasy- I enjoy that over the "challenge" of some of the games. I personally never want to fight the 5+ hour long bosses. I still enjoy most FF games however. I do also recognize that there are a lot of FF players who love love love the challenge of the big bosses that take and hour or more to beat. Hey, to each their own.

I think balance is key.. let casual players play casually and let those who will put in the effort reap greater benefits. I don't think things need to be ridiculously long, but the battle classes are seriously a joke in leveling like you said.

Now what I DO miss is the leveling system that was in FFXI. I liked party system in that.. now it's leves and more leves or mass slaughtering in a party. The leves are repetitive and the parties are too fast. Heck the leves are still really fast. I liked the slower pace and community with parties in FFXI. You really did earn having high level jobs in that game. Hn, and from this comes to mind the new classes that were implemented (BLM,WHM,BRD,etc). It is soooo disappointing that you instantly have a level 30+ new special job without working for it. Sure, you do a little something to gain that class, and a little more for abilities but there is no work to leveling it up! I do recall there being a real challenge in getting that special job in FFXIV and then having to level that up too! Just.. it was a job hand out =( Just no.

Anyways, kudos to voicing this issue mah brother.

[Gramul]

Fair enough. Some people must think cheaply of their time if instead of desiring continuous engagement they'd prefer staring at paint drying.

Or maybe they happen to be happy doing what they're doing. Maybe they think the feeling they get from getting through something others are too impatient to do is greater than beating the same content people do every night.
You're awfully egocentric if you think what you do to waste time is better than what other people do.
In the end, very little do in the game is going to help us in real life. It's a time waster any way you mark it. We may as well make it a waste of time all kinds of gamers (not just casuals with little time available) can enjoy.

[Zyph]

I agree with Gramul entirely. Make the game accessible to casuals but add content that us hardcores can experience if we want to.

I have a feeling that they will, but right now they're focused on making the game accessible to everyone/anyone.

[Rokien]

You do know that time=challenge. If you can't find the time for something, it's a challenge to go do it.

[Enfarious]

This topic has been beaten to death, but I'm still going to answer one question the OP posed:
I always bought and played FF games for storyline, obviously not for the "challenge" (because no FF game has ever really been a challenge) and even less for the timesinks.
Timesinks never even once felt satisfying to me, that's why I never trained my characters to a lvl high enough to beat the extra bosses thrown in after the end of the story in some of the very old FF games.
FF games are not where gamers turn to if they want challenging games - challenging in terms of "difficulty", not in terms of "tedious timeskink" - because there are enough other games for this.
If FFXIV is supposed to cater more to the hardcore player base, it should be by implementing new content which requires a lot of SKILL (which might be aquired by playing a lot), not by making them sit in front of the screen for 48 hours straight to only press the same 3 buttons over and over again..like the oh-so-great FFXI did.

So by your logic leveling is a timesink which is not enjoyable, but, skill requires alot of time to hone but that is not a timesink?

Seriously so many arguments that leveling is a waste of time, but hardcore/elite/skilled players spend more time in game working to attain these skill levels.

FF games were truly challenging if you wanted them to be, yes you could sit and level enough that every fight was a joke, I'm sure many did that then talked about how "great" they were at FF games, or how "easy" they are. The challenges were there if you wanted, speed run through any of them, look up best times on line prove your "greatness" by beating those times. Getting every item/weapon/armor side quest cleared/extra bosses. Just like all of those in an MMO those things are all there, every bit w/ the added part of other players so you don't have to look for the challenges they're playing w/ you already. BCNM times, Currency farmed, Clears on those "extra" areas that you don't "have" to do. All of that in XI is accessible to casual players, might take em longer to get there, but they can. They won't post a perfect run like the elite "70+hrs a week" players. Should that mean they "can't" go?

[Aarik]

It's not a casual vs. hardcore thing to me...because i consider myself casual...i play when i can on nights days off and weekends...but put 100% into what i do so i do it as good as possible..so my having a job and the need to see sunlight should hinder my rewards? Sorry i do not agree, just because i want to go outside and walk my dog, does not give you licence to go "neener-neener i got a double meld"...especially when i DO play...i put in the effort..i just don't have the same ammount of time.

Do i want more for my time, sure...am i cutting corners..no...so why should i get the short end of the stick just because i want a life AND mmo play, both are not exclusive. I do not have much time to play so i do what i can and get what i can from it..i don't complain it takes too long...so what gives you the right to say "he's not on as much as me..so he should not get it no matter how long it takes"....especially if i show willingness to get it done? ...that to me is just plain douchebaggery.

Why must people be so presumptuous? This is the second time I've replied to someone who has automatically classified me as *reads quote* someone who has no job, and has an aversion to sunlight. Once more, facts: I have a job too, wow! I also go to college, full time! Takes quite a bit of time, that. Takes a bit of sunlight, too. During weekends, I do yard work for others to make some additional money whenever I can. And yet, I can still find time for this. Don't presume things about situations you know nothing about.

Now then, I'm going to create a situation based upon your take of this: now, correct me if I got your view wrong, please, but from what I've read, you're saying that your rewards should not be 'hindered' because you play less, and that, likewise, those who play more should not have their rewards 'enhanced' due to it. Alright, let's roll with that, and turn this situation upside down, shall we? Instead of in game rewards, let us talk of real life rewards. I pose a situation: so you're at your work, and you put 100% into your work, as you have said. However, you have a coworker that works just as hard as you do, and just as diligently, but not as many hours. With me so far? So, the paycheck comes. According to your view, his paycheck should be identical to yours. If it's not, then it contradicts your argument. I mean hey, he worked just as hard and put just as much effort into it, so why shouldn't he, just because he didn't work as many hours as you did?

This is what my entire post was about. You'll see it many times in there. Balance. Equal Exchange. You put more time into one thing, then expect something else to suffer as a consequence of it. That's basic facts. If I chose to pour my time into this game instead of studying, guess what? My grades would suffer as a consequence. That's a fact. I'm not trying to go for some "hardcore gamers get all benefits", I'm trying to keep equality. Simple, pure, logic.

[Nate_Sith]

Obviously this issue does not have a win-win strategy that will satisfy everyone necessarily. The way I see it, there are two spectra that players lie on. High-devotion vs. low-devotion, and reward-oriented vs. content-oriented. Although you can't satisfy everyone, you CAN try to satisfy the most people or satisfy people more based on their commitment to your product.

Someone could fall anywhere on either of these two spectra but let's take a look at the four extremes:

1. High-devotion, content-oriented: These players have lots of time to spend playing the game, and do so more fully than others. They want to complete all the quests, defeat all the bosses, and explore all the terrains. These kinds of players will be mostly happy through any part of the progression of the game. The game devs' work will be most appreciated by these players.

2. Low-devotion, content-oriented: These players have less playtime but are playing the game for the experience it brings them. These players are mostly after things like story-line, engaging gameplay, and other parts of the game they find fun, whether it be considered productive or not by others.

3. High-devotion, reward-oriented: These are the "hardcore endgame" players who will move swiftly through the game for the rewards at the end. These are the kinds of people who see content before endgame as merely an obstacle, but will still push through it. Most of these players describe playing the game as "work," but are still willing to do it. Although these people will often pursue to their goals of getting all the different rewards the game has to offer, they often burn through content and end up quitting as a result of being bored afterwards. These players are typically playing whatever they see as the "hot" game that everyone else is playing, and they will jump from game to game racing through them and skipping through a lot of the "meat" of the game.

4. Low-devotion, reward-oriented: These players have less time to devote to the game, yet want the full rewards it offers. These are the players that will complain the most about things being too difficult or complicated. They want everything stream-lined and easier in general. The only favorable content these players will readily identify are things like the cool items and good graphics. These are the kinds of players who rely on things like PLs and helpful players running them through every quest (not necessary in XIV lol). They see leveling in terms of "grinding" and consider it to be work. These players will not only seek the easiest way through content to get the rewards at the end, but they often give up all together and quit the game. These are the players that people see as having entitlement issues, wanting everything that other players have achieved without actually doing any of the work. Their view on the game is almost always unrealistic and counter-intuitive, wanting some drastic changes without realizing the overall effects (wanting 100% drop rates of rare items). These are the players that will jump around to different games more-so than the high-devotion, reward-oriented players, and they will be even less happy with all the games they play, complaining all along the way.

So I guess the question is which one of these groups of players should SE focus on? The ones who play thoroughly through the content and appreciate the little things like story-lines and such? Or the players who play for shiny items, skipping through all the content of the game. There are probably more of the later and less of the former, but which one will make SE more money long-term?

SE has made compromises between these groups in my opinion, such as: anima teleports, levequests, and rested bonus. You'll notice these compromises deal with the issue of high time devotion vs. low time devotion, which is a realistic argument on whether the game should lean one way or the other. The rewards vs. content oriented argument in my opinion is pointless, neither side will ever find an agreement and the argument will persist til the end of MMOs. People try to lump these into two categories of casual vs. hardcore players but I think its a little different then that.

In my opinion if you don't have a lot of time to devote to this game but you're a mature person you'll still enjoy it and you probably won't complain. The issue is with immature players who want all the rewards without actually playing through the game.

[Enfarious]

Nate, I'd /quote that but it's just too much.
Just a couple things, I mostly agree on the player castes as you've laid them out. I don't think that devotion is really the right word, my devotion is shown by the fact that I continue to support this game through my voluntary monthly contribution and choice to play. It's got nothing to do with how much time I do or don't have to play it.
Aside from that one thing your right, and your right that never will there be a time where everyone is happy.
I think I fall into some inbetween point though, I spend what I believe to be a fair amount of time (20~40 hrs a week depending on work) but I know there are people that put in 60+ hours, and others that are "weekend warriors" which is why I say I don't think time == devotion. A willingness to push through the parts you don't enjoy, to suffer the "work" necessary to get what you want is a better measure of devotion imo.

You nailed the Content vs. EG and reward parts though, EG should imo again be accessible to all, but everyone should have to put in equal time and effort to reach it, if you play 60+ hours you should get there before me, if you do 100 CC runs you should have that gear before me. I shouldn't "not" be allowed to get it though. I'm not any less hardcore, I want the rewards, I'm more than happy to do the work, and I don't mind a good story, just don't have the kind of time some others do.

I think the flaw in design that people see right now is that the "hardcore" players put in the time but since any casual player can go 1~50 in a week it doesn't really create that "gap" between the hardcore and casual player. It's more a matter of pace, I can level and start EG content in 4/5 days then get all the same crap as a person that puts in 60+ hrs a week that person pouring all that time in feels slighted, it's not unreasonable. With a slower pace to EVERYTHING, whether it be leveling, reentry times on EG content, challenge of getting into EG content in the first place, and even exploration of the world I can't think of any game where in 30 mins I can travel the length and breadth of the world except here.

A reduced pace alone can/would/hopefully will make not only attaining those "hardcore" EG rewards more rewarding, but also create that seperation between player castes that everyone wants. It's the bragging rights, I have an Aegis, doesn't mean much when it only took 5 days to level and 2 days til it dropped, if it takes 60 farming runs @ 1 per day a weekend warrior will need 6+ months to get that's devotion. A "hardcore" player may get it in 2 months but that's where the bragging rights come in, more of an ego-centric reward.

Most of what I just said goes to your last statement well, if you put in the time you'll get all the things your after, how much time you have each day/week/month is only really important to how long it takes you 1 week or 1 year, it's all the same if you've the patience. The A.D.D. riddled "I want what I want and I want it now." types will never be happy even if you give them everything on chargen they will just tell you it's old and boring and there needs to be new stuff "now".

Yay walls of text^^