About Endwalkers AST changes

[ssunny2008]

Sry if i repeat something, i haven´t read through all the sides.

AST is my healer class so far and i´m ofc dissapointed about the changes once again. With the old cards and the shieldstance, we had a bit of variation in the class itself. No matter which "balancing-issues" came with it. The cards got määäh and now we´re going to lose noc.

With those changes, we´ve nothing but a 2nd whitemage with cards. Just why? Why do we need 2 healers and in comparison their only difference is actually RDPS vs. ADPS and a bit of movement? Everything else is completely the same:

- Gravity = Holy
- Malefic = Stone / Glare
- Combust = Aero
- Regena = Helios
- Essential = Afflatus
- 6.0 Neutral = Divine B.
- CU = Asylum
- Star = 6.0 healing flower
- Celestial = (more or less) = Benediction
- 6.0 damage + heal ability = Assise

and the list goes on...

I don´t get which smart brain at SE has forgot his morning visit by starbucks for a coffee. Some coffein might have done a wonder to the brain-cells. Yoshi should give this game finally into the hands of a competent producer. He´s getting old and his vision of this game is patethic.

[ty_taurus]

Sry if i repeat something, i haven´t read through all the sides.

AST is my healer class so far and i´m ofc dissapointed about the changes once again. With the old cards and the shieldstance, we had a bit of variation in the class itself. No matter which "balancing-issues" came with it. The cards got määäh and now we´re going to lose noc.

With those changes, we´ve nothing but a 2nd whitemage with cards. Just why? Why do we need 2 healers and in comparison their only difference is actually RDPS vs. ADPS and a bit of movement? Everything else is completely the same:

- Gravity = Holy
- Malefic = Stone / Glare
- Combust = Aero
- Regena = Helios
- Essential = Afflatus
- 6.0 Neutral = Divine B.
- CU = Asylum
- Star = 6.0 healing flower
- Celestial = (more or less) = Benediction
- 6.0 damage + heal ability = Assise

and the list goes on...

I don´t get which smart brain at SE has forgot his morning visit by starbucks for a coffee. Some coffein might have done a wonder to the brain-cells. Yoshi should give this game finally into the hands of a competent producer. He´s getting old and his vision of this game is patethic.

Of your list, a lot of these are actually different yet similar in functionality.
- Gravity is ranged whereas Holy is point blank, and presumably, AST will be receiving some kind of alternative form of CC to compete with Holy's Stun in dungeons.
- Malefic and Stone/Glare has be the same in all but potency and cast time since day 1 same with Combust and Aero/Dia
- Regen is nothing like Helios. I presume you mean Medica, both of which are very basic healing tools and not the focal point of either job's healing capabilities
- Essential Dignity is an OGCD heal while Afflatus Solace is a GCD heal that fuels a gauge
- Neutral Sect augments your healing whereas Divine Benison is exclusively an OGCD barrier
- CU and Asylum have also always been this way since day 1, and CU is also not a placed field effect but a channel spell that applies a buff.
- They said in the notes that WHM's new healing totem is just a healing move and offers some kind of buff and also has a completely different interaction to Earthly Star
- Celestial what? Celestial Intersection? That's the actual comparison to Divine Benison, not Neutral Sect, and is absolutely nothing like Benediction which is a 100% heal.
- The new starshower move probably is very Assize-like, though we're not sure if that's all there is to it, and is also gated behind the new seal system.

I actually feel that AST is getting more individuality in the more of more delayed actions, and while the ShB cards were a disaster in nearly every way other than consistency, it looks like the clunk issues have been at least partially ironed out (we'll need to wait and see what Sleeve Draw does). The effects themselves may or may not have changed, though it's more likely that they're not changing if you ask me. However, the idea that you can generate different buffs for yourself with different combinations of seals might possibly restore some of that idea of identity if the goal is to seek out different card-related benefits that unlock new actions for the AST. There's plenty of reasons to be doubtful, but there's a bit of promise there and we'll just have to wait till the media tour to know for sure.

[ssunny2008]

Of your list, a lot of these are actually different yet similar in functionality.
- Gravity is ranged whereas Holy is point blank, and presumably, AST will be receiving some kind of alternative form of CC to compete with Holy's Stun in dungeons.
- Malefic and Stone/Glare has be the same in all but potency and cast time since day 1 same with Combust and Aero/Dia
- Regen is nothing like Helios. I presume you mean Medica, both of which are very basic healing tools and not the focal point of either job's healing capabilities
- Essential Dignity is an OGCD heal while Afflatus Solace is a GCD heal that fuels a gauge
- Neutral Sect augments your healing whereas Divine Benison is exclusively an OGCD barrier
- CU and Asylum have also always been this way since day 1, and CU is also not a placed field effect but a channel spell that applies a buff.
- They said in the notes that WHM's new healing totem is just a healing move and offers some kind of buff and also has a completely different interaction to Earthly Star
- Celestial what? Celestial Intersection? That's the actual comparison to Divine Benison, not Neutral Sect, and is absolutely nothing like Benediction which is a 100% heal.
- The new starshower move probably is very Assize-like, though we're not sure if that's all there is to it, and is also gated behind the new seal system.

I actually feel that AST is getting more individuality in the more of more delayed actions, and while the ShB cards were a disaster in nearly every way other than consistency, it looks like the clunk issues have been at least partially ironed out (we'll need to wait and see what Sleeve Draw does). The effects themselves may or may not have changed, though it's more likely that they're not changing if you ask me. However, the idea that you can generate different buffs for yourself with different combinations of seals might possibly restore some of that idea of identity if the goal is to seek out different card-related benefits that unlock new actions for the AST. There's plenty of reasons to be doubtful, but there's a bit of promise there and we'll just have to wait till the media tour to know for sure.

I know about the little differences in the skills, but it doesn´t impact the gameplay that much. With 6.0 both classes are way more similar than they´ve ever been. There is no need for different classes if they work the same with minor tweaks. No matter if it´s WHM and AST or all tanks (esp. DRK = WAR) or even DPS classes. Instead of AST they could give WHM a skilltree. One with solo DPS, the other with raidbuffs, it would be the same.

And well, i didn´t mean helios, i meant aspectet benefic = regen. But yeah, Helios = Medica / Asp. Helios = Medica 2.... my bad so far.

[AnotherPerson]

I know about the little differences in the skills, but it doesn´t impact the gameplay that much.

Excuse me, but when you said Essential Dignity = Afflatus [Solace/Rapture?] and Celestial [Intersection?] = more or less = Benediction ... there's a huge difference between how those skills work and function and how you think they function...

Essential Dignity is an single target oGCD heal at a fairly low cooldown and used best when the person being healed has less HP. Afflatus Solace / Afflatus Rapture is a GCD skill that is tied to the resource generation of the Gauge, and in the case of Rapture, it becomes an AoE heal.

A Celestial Intersection being a 30 second cooldown and a Benediction being a 180 second cooldown is two entirely different concepts... especially when one heals a certain amount/shields and the other is a full HP bar heal.

[ssunny2008]

Excuse me, but when you said Essential Dignity = Afflatus [Solace/Rapture?] and Celestial [Intersection?] = more or less = Benediction ... there's a huge difference between how those skills work and function and how you think they function...

Essential Dignity is an single target oGCD heal at a fairly low cooldown and used best when the person being healed has less HP. Afflatus Solace / Afflatus Rapture is a GCD skill that is tied to the resource generation of the Gauge, and in the case of Rapture, it becomes an AoE heal.

A Celestial Intersection being a 30 second cooldown and a Benediction being a 180 second cooldown is two entirely different concepts... especially when one heals a certain amount/shields and the other is a full HP bar heal.

Then call it better like afflatus = celestial or essential = benediction?

It doesn´t change the possibilities you´ve in your kit. Just because 1 cd is a full heal and the other heals more the less HP your target has, or that you need a lily or just have a bunch of cd´s on it, doesn´t really change their use. You´ve x aoes, x bubbles, x gcds, x ogcds and they´re tweaks with "heals more / heals less / can be used up to x times / different cooldowns based on the impact".
It´s like saying that "but WHM bubble gives 10% more life while SCH bubble grants 10% less damage". Yes they work slightly different, but the use and end-effect is the same. In kind of healing AST and WHM will become finally the same class. Their difference is RDPS in form of cards vs ADPS with a selfbuff and lily-attacks, while one might be still a bit more movement friendly. But this is something we don´t know yet with all the movement and casting time changes which will arrive with 6.0.

It doesn´t make sense. If you can play one, you can play the other. But if you can play WHM or AST, you´re not able to perform well on SCH immediately, unless you just spam heal and ignore all the tools. It´s a gameplay difference AST and WHM won´t have anymore.

[ty_taurus]

Then call it better like afflatus = celestial or essential = benediction?

It doesn´t change the possibilities you´ve in your kit. Just because 1 cd is a full heal and the other heals more the less HP your target has, or that you need a lily or just have a bunch of cd´s on it, doesn´t really change their use. You´ve x aoes, x bubbles, x gcds, x ogcds and they´re tweaks with "heals more / heals less / can be used up to x times / different cooldowns based on the impact".
It´s like saying that "but WHM bubble gives 10% more life while SCH bubble grants 10% less damage". Yes they work slightly different, but the use and end-effect is the same. In kind of healing AST and WHM will become finally the same class. Their difference is RDPS in form of cards vs ADPS with a selfbuff and lily-attacks, while one might be still a bit more movement friendly. But this is something we don´t know yet with all the movement and casting time changes which will arrive with 6.0.

It doesn´t make sense. If you can play one, you can play the other. But if you can play WHM or AST, you´re not able to perform well on SCH immediately, unless you just spam heal and ignore all the tools. It´s a gameplay difference AST and WHM won´t have anymore.

You keep moving farther and farther away from an adequate comparison for Afflatus Solace/Rapture. I have no idea whether you're talking about Solace or Rapture, and I have no idea if you're referencing Celestial Opposition or Celestial Intersection which just adds to the confusion on what kind of comparison you're trying to make, but regardless of which you mean, those actions are almost nothing alike other than they heal to some degree.

Afflatus Solace and Rapture are MP-free GCD actions that currently are used as weaving tools most prominently and fuel a partial DPS forgiveness system--something that is entirely unique to WHM's gameplay and doesn't really have a fair comparison. There are lots of similarities between the healers as a whole and we could stand to maintain more individuality, but this is one of the examples of something that isn't homogenized. Regardless of whether you're referring to Celestial Opposition or Intersection, neither of them are anything like the Afflatus spells. Your closest comparison would be Aspected Benefic since it's also an instant cast, single target heal, but that's really the only similarity.

As for Essential Dignity, it's also not really comparable to Benediction which just raises anyone's HP to max. It would be more accurate to compare it to Tetragrammaton, but at the end of the day, I'm really not super concerned with similarities between basic healing tools and am more interested about how healers differ beyond the core necessities, and while those actions are functionally quite similar, they do at least have some nuance differences, like Essential Dignity being on a faster CD and having charges over Tetragrammaton making AST a more flexible healer regarding OGCDs (for other reasons too).

If anything, I'm more disappointed in the homogenization of healer DPS actions being reduced in cast times to match AST's 1.5 seconds. The mobility is absolutely a good thing, but I was really hoping that SCH would get an update to Ruin II that kept it on par with Broil and WHM would receive something perhaps inspired by BLM moreso to assist in its mobility issues rather than just conforming to AST's cast times.

[ssunny2008]

snip

Well y sry i´m not really used to the english skill names. And i don´t want to argue about if a skill is 100% comparable or not, it is about the kit both classes has and how it seems to be in endwalker.

It´s more like:

- Aoe income -> Medica 2 or Asp. Helios / Bubble or Star
- TB income -> Benediction or 1-2 essentials after the invul
etc.

They do work the same especially with being pure regen healers. If anything, such tweaks in heal potency or the difference by playing cards vs. self-dps decide between more or less malefic / glare casts or that you use an ogcd more or less. Of course it isn´t that big of a difference on the diurnal stance imo too. But it is still slightly different with nocturnal, to be able to swap, more movement and without the addition of some skill changes / new skills like the flower.
I don´t know how Sage is gonna be played vs SCH, but in case of WHM / AST, it´s sad to have a section called pure healers. It´s nothing but DRK / WAR when we talk about healers. We´ve already roleskills and each healer their standard heals, now both are going to be more homogenized again. I just don´t get it.

[ty_taurus]

Well y sry i´m not really used to the english skill names. And i don´t want to argue about if a skill is 100% comparable or not, it is about the kit both classes has and how it seems to be in endwalker.

It´s more like:

- Aoe income -> Medica 2 or Asp. Helios / Bubble or Star
- TB income -> Benediction or 1-2 essentials after the invul
etc.

They do work the same especially with being pure regen healers. If anything, such tweaks in heal potency or the difference by playing cards vs. self-dps decide between more or less malefic / glare casts or that you use an ogcd more or less. Of course it isn´t that big of a difference on the diurnal stance imo too. But it is still slightly different with nocturnal, to be able to swap, more movement and without the addition of some skill changes / new skills like the flower.
I don´t know how Sage is gonna be played vs SCH, but in case of WHM / AST, it´s sad to have a section called pure healers. It´s nothing but DRK / WAR when we talk about healers. We´ve already roleskills and each healer their standard heals, now both are going to be more homogenized again. I just don´t get it.

Ah, I'm sorry then regarding the language barrier part, I didn't realize it might've been some confusion on the English ability names.

That being said, it's definitely true Shadowbringers in particular has made WHM and AST feel more the same than ever before, but I still disagree about that in regards to Endwalker. There are some things that are being streamlined between the two, such as the cast time for Glare, but beyond that, I would argue that AST is moving a little bit away from WHM all things considered--not by much mind you, but a little bit. It's important to also consider the context of how actions are used.

If we take WHM's new flower totem for example and compare it to Earthly Star, both are interacted with in extremely different ways at a glance. With Earthly Star, you want to place it in advance. With the new flower totem, you want to place it down right before a raidwide, and it's possible we could have situations where WHM will want to spam Holy instead of Glare for a few seconds while near the totem. We also don't know what effects the flower totem actually has. They said it will do more than just heal, but it doesn't look like it was doing damage to the enemy in the trailer.

We also need to wait for the media tour to actually know the specifics of these new tools as well as any other changes they may have ignored talking about in the liveletter. Let's also remember that the AST performed several new support tools by the end of their segment of the trailer that we have literally no context for.

Ultimately, I feel like the AST is taking a few steps forward in terms of the things a lot of us want to see from it, so I don't agree that it's becoming even more like WHM. If anything, I kinda feel like WHM and SCH are being thrown under the bus and forced to stay largely stagnant in order for AST and SGE to branch out and try more ambitious things.