Smn Rework Suggestions After LL

[Exodus-E]

* Speaking of Ramuh, Shiva, Leviathan; where are they?! You could have made the 2 sets equaling all 6 primals? Garuda - Ifrit - Shiva -> Bahamut; Ramuh - Titan - Leviathan -> Phoenix.

I figured that if they ever get to finish development on proper Egi glamours, they could "extend" its functionality to that gemstone phase (Leviathan Sapphire? Ramuh Amethyst? Shiva Diamond?).

How about pets:
* Are they still a thing or just glorified minions?
* Do Egi's still have Egi Assault or just set to boring auto attack?

They're still a thing (and they can be glamoured, as ever).
But from what I've seen/heard, it seems they're just there to serve as "focus" for SMN's pet related skills (like that barrier, that "aetherpact" buff and the Trance/Demi phases).
Thus, they'll no longer auto-attack.

[Jirah]

The job looks like Ruin spamming with Ogcd “summons” could be wrong but wouldn’t be the second time idiots buy into superficial aesthetics

[Roda]

The job looks like Ruin spamming with Ogcd “summons” could be wrong but wouldn’t be the second time idiots buy into superficial aesthetics

those "summons" are gcds.

Garuda has 1 instant cast gcd, and 1 casted gcd.
Titan has 1 instant cast gcd, and 1 ogcd.
Ifrit has 1 casted gcd, and 2 instant gcds in a chain

That's all we've seen, I THINK there's a hidden skill that he didn't have on his bar.

[AngeliouxRein]

lol.. yeah I can’t lie that I was just as shook as other SMN mains but it didn’t take long for my brain to ask “did you notice the lack of summon management?”..

The way we handled bahamut and Phoenix is a 100% what I wanted but the other part (yes, they did an epic job on animations and all) of us just “summoning” stuff has my concern. It’s just primal coming and going and then we go into our little rotation until we get another demi. Rinse and repeat. It’ll be fun at first but it honestly might get boring later on. I can’t hate on SMN (my genuine interest is high), just feeling a bit concerned.

[rewd]

This seems like such a half-assed rework and it's sad.

First of all, the problem of SMN having more identities still persists. What are we now? Channelers? Trance mages? Geomancers? Elementalists? Pokemon trainers?
Why do we summon creatures that leave after a big attack, creatures that stay with us for a while and a creature that stays with us until we tell it to get lost? A creature that can only cast a buff and a shield and mainly looks menacingly at the enemy, while we exercise wind, fire and earth magic?

Aetherflow managed to 1) still be in the game 2) still be bloated for no reason (how did Energy Siphon and Painflare managed to survive?) 3) completely disconnected from everything. Ruin IV is even worse. What was a flexible tool and an important part of SMN's kit, is now just a GCD every minute.

5.X SMN is very mobile, but movement doesn't come for free and you still have to correctly manage Assaults and Ruin procs. Now, we have even more instacasts than we can possibly use. On top of that, we can also use Ruin III to weave pretty much every time we want... But where are the oGCDs to weave?

Demis lost some interaction with the player and now the only thing that makes them different from LS and Queen is Enkindle. The silver lining is that Bahamut phase looks visually cooler and that Phoenix got a new skill, which seems to be a party heal. Hopefully it's worth using and an oGCD.

The primals phases are quite disappointing. The model themselves and the ultimate moves are very cool, what comes afterwards not so much. Garuda and Titan look very basic with some generic windballs and rocks. Ifrit on the other hand looks more interesting, but that's it.

All in all, while looking good, this rework just seems like a pretty big downgrade to me. I love SMN because it's a pretty active job with a lot to manage and quite versatile. I don't really see much of it, if at all, in the new version.

I feel like they could have tried to implement current elements in the 6.0 version, like linking Garuda to your DoTs again. One skill could have applied DoTs, another skill could have spread them across targets. This way, DoTs would still be part of the job but they wouldn't be a core mechanic (think of NIN's Shadow Fang). It would have kept the fun elements of putting DoTs on everything in dungeons and it would have kept room for optimization in raids during add phases. Lastly, it would have added more oomph to Garuda. Add something similar to Ifrit and Titan and this rework would have looked much better to me.

They took a lot without giving anything in return. In a way it's poetic, since it's what happened to SCH in Shadowbringers. Was it just a matter of time for SMN?

[AnotherPerson]

This seems like such a half-assed rework and it's sad.

First of all, the problem of SMN having more identities still persists. What are we now? Channelers? Trance mages? Geomancers? Elementalists? Pokemon trainers?
Why do we summon creatures that leave after a big attack, creatures that stay with us for a while and a creature that stays with us until we tell it to get lost? A creature that can only cast a buff and a shield and mainly looks menacingly at the enemy, while we exercise wind, fire and earth magic?

Aetherflow managed to 1) still be in the game 2) still be bloated for no reason (how did Energy Siphon and Painflare managed to survive?) 3) completely disconnected from everything. Ruin IV is even worse. What was a flexible tool and an important part of SMN's kit, is now just a GCD every minute.

Where's the problem with its identity that hasn't been shown already in lore? Carbuncle is still the initial egi. Instead, the gems are our trances where we can focus our power of the egi - pretty much like crystals summoning a primal. Unlike a real primal, we just borrow their power - sorta like using Dreadwyrm trance and using Bahamut's Aether to channel Deathflare.

The initial summon is an AoE hit basically when channeling the aether to use the gem. Then, we use the crystal as the focus of our power to use their summoned skills - like in all FF series, but different in the sense that we're only borrowing a portion of their power instead of summoning them outright.

Aetherflow lorewise is initally gathering external aether into a gem/crystal and channeling that with a small portion of your aether to activate a stronger geometric spell (fester/plainflare). If you think about it, that's basically what we're doing with the summons in the new SMN except we're gathering a primal's specific aetheric aspect instead. So we're actually going back to our ACN roots, but expanding on its initial aetherflow mechanic. However, unlike the past ACN, the split is different since they're adopting the traditional FF SMN playstyle too - where you're the one who uses the power.

Our pets are still used for utility it seems - so they're support oriented while we're offense oriented. This follows in-line with the current SCH's pet. Maybe in the future we'll get more pet skills, but we'll have to see how the pet AI handles it, since ShB pet AI is still a bit janky.

I say they handled this very well by allowing pets to co-exist, SMN to have big summons, yet still retain the lore and importance of aetherflow gameplay via mini summon phases.

[Ailuron]

Where's the problem with its identity that hasn't been shown already in lore? Carbuncle is still the initial egi. Instead, the gems are our trances where we can focus our power of the egi - pretty much like crystals summoning a primal. Unlike a real primal, we just borrow their power - sorta like using Dreadwyrm trance and using Bahamut's Aether to channel Deathflare.

The initial summon is an AoE hit basically when channeling the aether to use the gem. Then, we use the crystal as the focus of our power to use their summoned skills - like in all FF series, but different in the sense that we're only borrowing a portion of their power instead of summoning them outright.

Aetherflow lorewise is initally gathering external aether into a gem/crystal and channeling that with a small portion of your aether to activate a stronger geometric spell (fester/plainflare). If you think about it, that's basically what we're doing with the summons in the new SMN except we're gathering a primal's specific aetheric aspect instead. So we're actually going back to our ACN roots, but expanding on its initial aetherflow mechanic. However, unlike the past ACN, the split is different since they're adopting the traditional FF SMN playstyle too - where you're the one who uses the power.

Our pets are still used for utility it seems - so they're support oriented while we're offense oriented. This follows in-line with the current SCH's pet. Maybe in the future we'll get more pet skills, but we'll have to see how the pet AI handles it, since ShB pet AI is still a bit janky.

I say they handled this very well by allowing pets to co-exist, SMN to have big summons, yet still retain the lore and importance of aetherflow gameplay via mini summon phases.

I think my biggest problem with it, is not sharing the same vision of what a summoner should be. In a more traditional FF sense, SMNs aren't actually casters that bring out an entity to fight by their side (a pet class) im guessing but rather a caster that channels the power of these entity.

That to me sounds like, a caster putting on a skin/style on their spells to make it lore appropriate, which many other games have already... Its kinda like flavour-text. It wouldn't make a difference if Ifrit/Titan/Garuda showed up for their glorious 2 whole seconds or not. I guess what im trying to say is, mechanics wise its a downgrade/condensing/dumbing down, its not unique, sure it has 3 mini "summon" phases (more like primal-themed casting modes) but in the end, they are shoved into a more traditional caster mold. Hell, it makes it much simpler to develop without the AI, but the AI is what makes it unique.. wish they could have just improved it.. instead of removing it altogether.

I only hope that the idea of a support-oriented pet is exactly that.. give carby/egi something more for us to do/manage instead of being mostly aesthetics.. or let the current existing egi have an interaction with the primal-themed casting modes. I'd be slightly happier with it that way.

mixed feelings, have to wait to see...

[nalgene]

I like DoTs but also think new SMN looks great. I suppose this makes room for a DoT focussed job in the future?

[Tulzscha]

I like DoTs but also think new SMN looks great. I suppose this makes room for a DoT focussed job in the future?

I sure hope so, that would most likely be my new main. For now I guess I'll try Bard. It's nice to see SMN be more about the summons but looks like it might be reeeaally boring. I know a lot of people complain about its rotation but I like it. Ah well.

[Rika007]

I think my biggest problem with it, is not sharing the same vision of what a summoner should be. In a more traditional FF sense, SMNs aren't actually casters that bring out an entity to fight by their side (a pet class) im guessing but rather a caster that channels the power of these entity.

I mean I don't know if that's really accurate, this new XIV summoner fits in perfectly with how FF summoners have been. Let's look at two of FF's most iconic Summoners (if not THE most iconic ones) Yuna and Rydia. Yuna is a primarily summoner/healer who brings out a big ass summon who does some big power attacks then leaves if it is defeated. The summons are very similar to demi's in that way, the only difference being the summoner takes the place of the party. Rydia on the other hand just calls on a summon, it comes in, does a super move and leaves. This is very simmilar to the new summon gems.

Hell, it makes it much simpler to develop without the AI, but the AI is what makes it unique.. wish they could have just improved it.. instead of removing it altogether. ...

The problem with this thought is... They have tried that. Literally for 8 years through at least 4 different reworks they have tried to figure out the pet AI and put it into a playable state that players have liked. And they have failed at each attempt. No matter what the devs tried, the players haven't really gravitated to a pet system that did what they wanted and expected of it. At a certain point if you cant fix a problem despite giving it your best effort, removing the problem entirely so you can focus on something new is a valid way of handling it.