Smn Rework Suggestions After LL

[aveyond-dreams]

I do not need to know the exact numbers of anything because the day they released the job action trailer the reception for summoner was overwhelmingly positive except for the affliction warlocks who ruined the class for the past 8 years. It was clear to pretty much everyone. Even so, here's a small-scale survey someone did on reddit where the new summoner came in 3rd place just after sage and reaper where they asked people what they plan to main in EW.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...b_will_you_or/

[Roda]

You still haven't given us any solid reason why things "failed" (hint, it's not the fact that we had damage over time mechanics)
NuSMN is not "successful" because it currently does not exist, and you have not given any solid reason why it's any better.

Now I'm not one who wants to invalidate feelings, but design changes cannot be based on vague feelings.
And once again, just because you don't like (or understand) something, doesn't mean it's not valid. FFXIV is a numbered, main-line final fantasy title. The producer and director since 2.0 (Summoner's introduction to the game) is currently on the board of directors. This game is not a rogue operation to besmirch whatever your idea of a summoner is.

Oh and they haven't fixed smn's breaking point. They are only procrastinating on it.
Do you know why?

I do not need to know the exact numbers of anything because the day they released the job action trailer the reception for summoner was overwhelmingly positive except for the affliction warlocks who ruined the class for the past 8 years. It was clear to pretty much everyone. Even so, here's a small-scale survey someone did on reddit where the new summoner came in 3rd place just after sage and reaper where they asked people what they plan to main in EW.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...b_will_you_or/

Lmao, there's five times as many dps parses for TEA (picking this one, because people often call ultimate raiders such a small portion of the community that SE should ignore because X or Y) than there are dps on that chart. All that data shows is that .3747% of the ffxiv reddit is affected by hype. Which, uh, is pretty well known.

Hype is not reality.

[aveyond-dreams]

I don't need to write an essay to explain my thinking. Poison mage gameplay was bad. The summons which are the core thing about summoner were also bad. There is no need for me to articulate this further. There's nothing vague about it. The class was a broken disjointed mess that was trying to be everything at once, and now they've fixed it by giving it a focus around summon magic. I am thankful that Yoship gave us a summoner that feels like a summoner now.

You can choose to continue debating this issue if you wish, but you will not convince me that 5.0's warlock is better than what I've seen of the summoner we are getting in 6.0.

[Roda]

I don't need to write an essay to explain my thinking. Poison mage gameplay was bad. The summons which are the core thing about summoner were also bad. There is no need for me to articulate this further. There's nothing vague about it. The class was a broken disjointed mess that was trying to be everything at once, and now they've fixed it by giving it a focus around summon magic. I am thankful that Yoship gave us a summoner that feels like a summoner now.

You can choose to continue debating this issue if you wish, but you will not convince me that 5.0's warlock is better than what I've seen of the summoner we are getting in 6.0.

You don't need to do anything. But if you want to have your posts be taken seriously, then you need to explain yourself instead of stating your feelings as some objective fact and to stop with the name calling of other people who have different opinions than you.
Honestly, that name calling, and your refusal to explain anything from your position (and, honestly your admitted lack of experience playing summoner in content) gives off the impression to me that you don't understand how summoner currently works (or, also an option, you don't understand how warlock works). And if you don't give off the impression of understanding the job, then how can we trust that you know the breaking points it was coming to (dot's weren't it, and it's still coming), or where the gameplay systems clashed with the summoning mechanics (the only problem with the dots were their particle effects and names, other systems were far more in the way of the fantasy, job flow, and progression). My questions are me literally trying to help you help your own argument.

Like, if you want, I can help you in front of a dummy. The rotation isn't hard or clunky (it's not going to be any more streamlined in EW), and honestly the dots take up about as much brainpower as your favorite caster, BLM, probably less so 'cause BLM has reactive procs to deal with and manage.

Personally I'd rather they had embraced actual pet management instead of these fake Egi avatars. The system wasn't that far from being fixed entirely. And current Summoner was the pet job where it felt the most fluid on too due to how pets were woven into the rotation.

Aesthetics aren't always mechanics. Mechanics are, however, Aesthetics. And when it comes to current Summoner, I wanted its Arcanist sub-theme to remain a core part of the role, with the Summoner theme highlighted in Demis. Thus, these pseudo-bardsongs irritate me, not because I think there's a problem with people who hated the DoTs, but because it could easily have been kept around.

To me, SE gave up, plain and simple. Will people it enjoy it? Sure. Will it have as much depth? No. Even Stormblood Summoner had more, and for the WRONG reasons, imo.

Imo they needed to change how they approach(ed) and use(d) demis to fix what was/is coming.

But I am the same mind of you who wanted to be a powerful arcanist who also controlled the power of summoning (like how in previous FFs summoners had a second role). I'm glad that at least not EVERY attack is tied to another entity doing something instead of me.

[Grimoire-M]

Personally I'd rather they had embraced actual pet management instead of these fake Egi avatars. The system wasn't that far from being fixed entirely. And current Summoner was the pet job where it felt the most fluid on too due to how pets were woven into the rotation.

Aesthetics aren't always mechanics. Mechanics are, however, Aesthetics. And when it comes to current Summoner, I wanted its Arcanist sub-theme to remain a core part of the role, with the Summoner theme highlighted in Demis. Thus, these pseudo-bardsongs irritate me, not because I think there's a problem with people who hated the DoTs, but because it could easily have been kept around.

To me, SE gave up, plain and simple. Will people it enjoy it? Sure. Will it have as much depth? No. Even Stormblood Summoner had more, and for the WRONG reasons, imo.

[ChazNatlo]

I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of DoTs. They're not added complexity, they're just busy work. Yup, my DoTs are almost out, time to refresh them. Boring.

That said, they were hardly the problem with the Summoner from a mechanics reason. I wouldn't say they were a flaw from a thematic standpoint, even if I wouldn't say they were precisely on brand. (Yes, Rydia could poison, but all that argument leads to us that we should just delete SMN and tack summons onto other classes. Like, yeah, cool, my Faris could be both a Samurai and a Summoner. Maybe Summoner should have been a Melee unit, cause there is precident.)

I do hope that the bay sayers are wrong and the game ends up fun. I'm in no position to judge, since I'm a filthy casual, but this argument is going nowhere.

Edit: Hmm... That post sortof got away from me. Uh... They probably could have kept the Power fantasy and the pets and the Dots. The DoTs probably would have bored me, but oh well.

[SkyCake]

Edit: Actually, I don't want to get caught up in a conversation on it.

[aveyond-dreams]

I do not need to be a master chef to know when a dish doesn't taste good, and I don't need to be a SMN main for my opinion to count. I levelled the class to 80 in Shb and didn't like it. I gave it a fair chance. The dish has been sent back to the kitchen and a better one is now on its way. Why should I main a class I do not enjoy? I am also confused that you mention name calling? It has been commonplace to compare SMN more to warlock than an actual FF summoner since ARR.

Afflcition Warlock description taken from the main WoW site:
"A master of shadow magic who specializes in drains and damage-over-time spells."

In any case I support the direction the class is going in now and I am optimistic about its future. It will probably become my go to caster for several of my alts, which I'll boost to 80 once the next wave of job skip potions come out. Poison mage will join bow mage, gun mage, rDPS healing limit breaks, 4.0 dark arts spam, bards that can only sing to themselves, and old AST’s useless cards, along with many other bad design choices in the past where it belongs. There is no reason to go into any further depth because it's plain to see for most.

[Atomos]

I do not need to be a master chef to know when a dish doesn't taste good, and I don't need to be a SMN main for my opinion to count. I levelled the class to 80 in Shb and didn't like it. I gave it a fair chance. The dish has been sent back to the kitchen and a better one is now on its way. Why should I main a class I do not enjoy? I am also confused that you mention name calling? It has been commonplace to compare SMN more to warlock than an actual FF summoner since ARR.

Afflcition Warlock description taken from the main WoW site:
"A master of shadow magic who specializes in drains and damage-over-time spells."

In any case I support the direction the class is going in now and I am optimistic about its future. It will probably become my go to caster for several of my alts, which I'll boost to 80 once the next wave of job skip potions come out. Poison mage will join bow mage, gun mage, rDPS healing limit breaks, 4.0 dark arts spam, bards that can only sing to themselves, and old AST’s useless cards, along with many other bad design choices in the past where it belongs. There is no reason to go into any further depth because it's plain to see for most.

Agreed. SMN got super boring quickly when it first came out. The Egi mechanic was annoying and very aesthetically displeasing. HW not much changed, but in SB and ShB it only got slightly more pleasing with Bahamut and Phoenix. And now they are finally focusing on actual summoning instead of being the worst iteration of a summoner in the history of main FF games.

[Roda]

I do not need to be a master chef to know when a dish doesn't taste good, and I don't need to be a SMN main for my opinion to count. I levelled the class to 80 in Shb and didn't like it. I gave it a fair chance. The dish has been sent back to the kitchen and a better one is now on its way. Why should I main a class I do not enjoy? I am also confused that you mention name calling? It has been commonplace to compare SMN more to warlock than an actual FF summoner since ARR.

Afflcition Warlock description taken from the main WoW site:
"A master of shadow magic who specializes in drains and damage-over-time spells."

I don't need you to be a master chef, but I do need to know you understand what fish is. Because if someone kept sending a meal that they ordered back to my kitchen, I'd think they have no clue what they actually want.
A single sentence, heard second hand, is literally how the capybara is classified as a fish by the catholic church.

Now I will say the leveling process, especially after all these reworks is AGONIZINGLY BAD at teaching you how to play summoner. It is SO SOOOOOOOO BAD, that it even instills bad casting habits. Especially if you tried it in 5.0 and never touched it again. This is why I offer the training session, 'cause unfortunately the game doesn't provide that for you, and the progression path of summoner doesn't reflect the actual play of level 80 summoner. :T

SMN was originally designed with Arcanist in mind, the name "Summoner" didn't come about until after the mechanics of the job were made - Sage was the same. I'm guessing they chose "Summoner" because of the pet. Since then they've made it more of an actual Summoner every xpac which made a big ol' mess lol. Now we have people wanting all manner of different things for the same job and there's no pleasing everyone.

I do think they're going in the right direction, there's just going to be a lot of friction going forward no matter what. Personally I just want a job that has the same management play style as current SMN, idc what it's called. I still think it'd be best to split SMN off Arcanist so it can be its own thing - ideally replacing it with a new dot caster (but that"s just me wanting a dot caster).

I guarantee you that summoner is the way it is, is because the ps3 couldn't handle full summons. The entire storyline tries to justify not having them... until we do get them, but oops they committed on the visual design so hard in promotional art, class design, and story.