Smn Rework Suggestions After LL

[big_boz]

I still dont know what to think of the changes. I've been a SMN main since ARR, and they always molest the class. i juts hope they got it right this time, but we will see.

[aveyond-dreams]

Gee it's almost as if this Final Fantasy XIV, as in the 14th title of the series so logically it would follow that some jobs stay thematically consistent-and improve upon their gameplay instead of turning them into ghosts of their former selves. Summoner has never been about poisoning your enemies/wearing them down with dots or wielding pets so pathetically weak that a substantial number of people want them deleted altogether in favor of actual summons.

[ssunny2008]

Gee it's almost as if this Final Fantasy XIV, as in the 14th title of the series so logically it would follow that some jobs stay thematically consistent-and improve upon their gameplay instead of turning them into ghosts of their former selves. Summoner has never been about poisoning your enemies/wearing them down with dots or wielding pets so pathetically weak that a substantial number of people want them deleted altogether in favor of actual summons.

I don´t think that any FF title has been about Dots so far, but it´s pretty common in MMORPG´s. You need something to take care about while playing different boss mechanics. And just because something in the past didn´t had mechanic X, doesn´t mean that a new game of the series wouldn´t be slightly different, especially when it wents from soloplay to multiplayer and have to take care about balancing with a bunch of other classes.
I would like to see a real summoner too, but the new isn´t one... just a string of some animations. Imagine it would be like the FF11 summoner with tons of pets, but what would you do here? Staying afk and watching? You need something to do next to your pets and Dots are a nice addition to this.

I personally would even welcome MMORPG extended gameplay aka "skilltrees". Give us one tree which works more with dots, while the other is more pet-related and stuff like summoning bahamut or being able to have 2-3 pets at the same time could be the final skills. Ppl could choose, what they prefer and everyone is happy. But it´ll never happen anyway.
On the other hand i won´t believe that the most ppl would enjoy a real summoner in this game since it would be way different from the older games one button play to summon nothing but an animation. (Oh wait...)

It´s still a MMORPG in the first case and ppl shoul beware of this before they start their rundown of all FF games on their PS. The experience will be way different than the stuff they got used to. You could even copy & paste any other graphics on it. Even the whole FF14 lore got thrown into it without many thoughts into it. It matches together somehow, but it´s far away from being that FF experience i know from all solo games of the series i´ve played.

[Garnix]

Even the whole FF14 lore got thrown into it without many thoughts into it. It matches together somehow, but it´s far away from being that FF experience i know from all solo games of the series i´ve played.

Or maybe it somehow matches together because a lot of thought was put into it?...
And regarding DoTs, there still seems to be a sort of short DoT during the wind phase, which makes a lot more sense for SMN than things like miasma IMO.
Also, DoTs have always been part of FF. And it was traditionally associated with Black mage's poison.
I think they will obviously add a DoT mage in 7.0 (either green mage or time mage if I had to guess). And I think having SMN and DoT mage be two separate job is fine. Especially because SMN DoTs are not great in my opinion and a bit lackluster (maybe that's a hot take?). They are currently just something you had to pay attention to because it was there and that did not add much gameplay-wise than any other spell would. They could be a long cooldown nuke and it would pretty much be the same thing, but less tedious.
You just put them in your rotation and be done with it. It's the same reason they are removing NIN's DoT. It is just busy work. BLM at least have a proc tied to it...
SMN has basically nothing to make the DoTs interesting/rewarding. So I much rather have them make a separate DoT job in the future which whole gameplay focuses on DoTs at least as much as BRD does.

[aveyond-dreams]

I vastly prefer our new trance abilities while waiting to summon our next pet as opposed to manging *poisons.* We now get to call down torandoes, sandwich enemies between stone slabs, and get up close and personal in melee range with Ifrit’s dash. If you prefer dots to this, I’m sorry but summoner was never for you in the first place. I’ve played FFXI’s summoner and while waiting to use my next pet ability I can heal my trusts or throw out black mage nukes. The thought of using dots never crossed my mind while playing it in that game.

If you do not consider 6.0’s summoner a real summoner then there is really nothing left to say. The logic being used here is so reductive that basically every job is just “a string of animations.” The dot version of this job should have never existed, because now there are people with a skewed perception of what a summoner is. The simple reality is that FFXIV’s affliction warlock looked boring and was torture to play.

Other longtime FF vets like myself who have been waiting for the past 8 years for summoner to be added to FFXIV finally have our class, which newer players are also extremely excited for, just after Sage and Reaper. The older FF games will forever serve as both a thematic and mechanical basis for recurring jobs like this one.

[ssunny2008]

If you do not consider 6.0’s summoner a real summoner then there is really nothing left to say.

Yes every job is a string of animations, but it´s still a difference how it´s been made. From MNK i expect to be a fast hitting melee only class. SAM should be that hardhitting finisher class. Black magic is a symbol for destruction and so is BLM. White magic on the other hand has always been like something "positive" and of course it´s WHM is a healer. WAR is diverse, i would call someone with an axe a berserk, but since it´s a tank and not a burst-dps, being WAR seems fine.

I could go on with the list, but anyway i can´t see the current nor the new SMN as a real summoner. Yes you summon things, but next to carbuncle, bahamut and pheonix in their strict rotation, you just summon animations as you did in other FF games with Esper, GF, primal crystals. All of them don´t have coop or combo skills and there are not even real commands you can use. You don´t really interact with them, you don´t even have a carbuncle as mount, no you need to buy it in the shop.

Imagine you would be a real summoner, maybe someone who can have like 2 of 4 egis at once, maybe 2 finisher egis on top. (Just brainstorming)

- Let´s take Ifrit as core-egi, which gives you some fire commands. If your second egi is Garuda, Dot-skills getting expanded in their time, while aoe skills has a bigger range.
- Or if you´ve Shiva as second egi, you can combine fire and ice skills to set a water debuff on the enemy. The boss will get 10% more damage from lightning effects then, so of course Ramuh is a 3rd Egi you can summon for 10s, while the other 2 will be permanent.
- You could even combine Ifrit and Leviathan to create some fog-clouds and all players in there are getting buffed in evasion or maybe get a higher critical hit chance. Maybe NIN could use this fog to perform trickattack without mudra / his own stealth? Would be a nice class combo.
- At last Titan could be the other 10s Egi. Let him spawn 4 stones, where the group or a tank could take cover behind at several damage incomes. Maybe even Ifrit would be able to melt them, so they leave a hart hitting lava-aoe similar to Dotun.

Then you could take Shiva as prime-egi, which grants you more ice abilities and CC and you combine it the same or other ways with the rest. Garuda which grants more movement speed, more range, a windwall... Levi which could cleanse yourself or others, man so many possibilities...

You would interact with your egis, combine their elements and even in the raidparty it would spice things up. Being able to spawn stones or clouds the raid can interact with is much more than "press a button to shield or buff the whole raid in range". It´s interactive gameplay.
Sadly it would probably to complex for the most ppl and such stuff will surely never be implemented, but this is something i would call a summoner and not just a string of animations. Call me a dreamer, but 6.0 SMN is wasted effort for me and a pure lack of creativity.

And again, i would still vote for skilltrees too. It´s not hard to balance them. Give summoner an egi skilltree and a dot skilltree. Give MNK a positional-heavy tree and a blitz depended tree. Give Tanks the possibility to tank or to DPS, same with healers. Man there are so many ways to cater pretty much everyone on any class with stuff like a skilltree instead of static homogenized subclasses with roleskills. All those dumb discussions could end so easily with more possibilities on our side.

Or maybe it somehow matches together because a lot of thought was put into it?...

If i look at the story and lore, then no... neither if we look at older games and not even if we take FF14´s own lore / story. It matches together yes, but deeper thoughts are not really placed or easy "solutions" got placed. Just some examples:

- The Nanamo got poisened storyline... like yeah...
- Different races / classes... Why i´m able to become a dragoon without visiting ishgard? Why is GNB a tankclass, when Squall was a DPS-monster with sick limit breaks? Since when was Cloud a DRK? (Greatsword?)
Of course, we´re warrior of lights and can do everything easily. But we haven´t been able to switch classes easily in solo games, on the other hand we were able to be much more than "just that one class" per fight. (Casting, fighting, summoning, healing...)
Or Viera got introduced in the first splitterworld only, why does 1000 players run around as Viera here? Or Hrothgar which came suddenly out of nowhere? Raktika is the perfect Viera lore, but everything which affects us players, is none. As next we´re going to get male-viera caused by the community wish. It´s just a thing, because this is a MMORPG and far away from their lore, isn´t it?

There is a lot of more stuff like this, if we take a deeper look at it. SE did easy in this way by calling us the WoL and placing new areas. It got combined tricky in the story, but it doesn´t match lore-wise so well together / the lore is getting ignored to cater the players experiences and wishes.
This means, that arguments like "it has been in FF game X so or so" are not a real thing. As i´ve said, it´s an MMORPG in it´s first case and stuff is getting finetuned on that fact.

[MagiusNecros]

Doomtrain inflicts poison amongst other status effects. So did Hades in VII. Other summons in the franchise also enabled you to learn Bio/Poison magic in VI.

DoTs in Summoning classes are just rare and stuck on one summon in a few games.

If anything if they remove SMN DoTs they should give Miasma and Bio to SCH. Or back to Black Mage.

[Dyvid]

I'm tired of the weak arguments of Summoner was never this in other FF games. Maybe you should go back and play all the titles again because clearly you didn't even know what Summoner was through the many titles.

FFI and II didn't have summoner
FFIII had Sumoner; a Mage job that would cast magical beast either provided offense or defense effects.
FFIV was a Black Mage / Summoner Hybrid so yea, Rydia could cast poison, bio, and virus.
FFV Summoner; a Mage job that would cast magical beast either provided offense or defense effects. On top of that players could subjob BLM, RDM, WHM
FFVI through FFVIII; players equipped summons to learn spells and abilites
FFIX, FFX, FFXI; Summoner was a White Mage / Summoner Hybird
FFXI, FFXII & FFXIII; Summons were pet like

So surprise, Summoner comes in all shapes and sizes. FFXIV was all about management, might be why they had books as weapons.... You had to manage your MP, your Aetherflow, your Pets, your DoTs, what targets to attack. Slowly SE's brilliance has chipped away at concepts many SMN mains enjoyed. I wonder if all the people who say they welcome these changes are also going to the ones to drop the job they currently play and main Summoner 6.0.

[aveyond-dreams]

Yeah, this is really starting to sound like the mass hysteria that occurred after they changed Astro's cards, or the bizarre episode regarding male Viera height and them not being macho enough. The perception that summoner has no unifying theme and that it was ok for it to be a poison mage in this game is not connected to reality. I can't take anyone seriously who brings up Rydia's bio/poison spells and giving the impression that it was some critical part of her repertoire. It wasn't. Full stop. Any summon we've had in the mainline series that focused on side effects was almost always overshadowed and ignored in favor of summons that act normally and deal damage. FFIII's *evoker* was the borderline useless class that focused on status effects-FFIII's summoner specialized in traditional summon magic for large amounts of damage and FFV's follows the same model.

So no, the facts do not line up in favor of a dot warlock. This is objective reality.

Spoiler alert when they did the above changes we still have people who play (and like!) the new Astro such as myself and after so much nitpicking about height there is still a huge amount of people who want to play male Viera reapers once Endwalker drops. The affliction warlocks we are leaving behind in the dust may have been SMNs but they sure weren't summoners. I concede that it was unjust for SE to string them along with the false perception that summoners were supposed to be like this when history has proven otherwise, but now that the bubble has finally burst it's time to move on. 80/20 rule time. It is exponentially more beneficial for them to release a summoner with more straightforward gameplay and captivating spell effects than to continue catering to a minority that is stuck in a rut and unwilling to change for the better. So yes, more people will pick up and main 6.0’s summoner than 5.0’s affliction warlock and the game will be better off for it.

[CasterSvarog]

I do like how visually the 6.0 Summoner looks and works. Being able to summon the OG ARR primals and having the ability to augment our attacks is pretty cool and the change with Dreamwyrm trace into the current Firebird trace was kind of inevitable and neat. But i do have a few issues with it:

You have tons of different Instant casts, from Ruin 4, the two traces, the Garuda and Titan phases and Ruin 3 even having a 1.5 second cast time now. But for ogcd skills all we have is Energy drain/siphon, Fester, Painflare, Phoenix's buff, Deathflare, Aetherpact and Enkindle, and a lot of these are mutually exclusive towards each, you can't use Enkindles and Aetherpact in the same phase.
Personally, I think that Energy drain/siphon should go back down to 30 seconds to create a constant source of oGCDs, and the Summons/Trace buttons should be made into ogcds as well. Then you could at least have some kind of opener like the one we have now: Using Egi assault 2 which is used to weave in dreadwyrm trace, then we can use insta casting ruin 3 to weave death flare and Demi-Bahamut. I think something like that would at least make it feel faster.
Speaking of Demi's, they should not have changed how Fountain of fire and Brand of purgatory work, because now it's just: one button for single targets, and one is for Aoe, and honestly just sounds a little too boring and hits the healer problem of here's one button and the two ogcds you'll get during that phase. This also applies to Dreadwyrm trace as well, which has the same problem.

Granted there's still a lot we don't know about the job yet, like any skills that Yoshi-p didn't have on his hotbars, but with what we have right now that's just what I think should be done.