Monk Identity and Blitz ?

[Mikey_R]

With the current DK > Twin > Demo > Boot > True > Snap > DK > True > Snap > Boot > Twin > Demo. This is 7 movements.

Double True strike isn't a thing at the moment, so this is wrong (based off of info from Balance Discord).

DK > Twin > Demo > BS > True > Snap > DK > Twin > Snap > BS > True > Demo

Same length of attack string, that is 3 positional movements.

Every Perfect Balance, assuming 100% uptime, will swap DK and BS in the rotation;

BS > Twin > Demo > DK > True > Snap > BS > Twin > Snap > DK > True > Demo

so if it started with BS instead of DK, then you have 8 movements, bearing in mind this is over 12 GCDs.

At this point, we cannot say how Blitz will interact with the rotation and until we get more info, it will be impossible to tell. Should they have removed positionals from Raptor Form? In my opinion, no, but until I get my hands on EW Monk, I am not going to comment on something I do not know.

As for positionals being part of a Monk's identity, probably not, however it has always been a key part of how the job plays in the same way that one of the key features of Black Mage is finding that spot to stand still on.

EDIT: Reaper has more of an identity than MNK from what I can see in the trailer.

Monk used to be a quick attacking crit machine between guaranteed crit on Bootshine and Internal release increasing critical rate. It was also the highest DPS which was balanced by GL stacks and doing positionals. You want the high damage, you have to work for it.

Over the years it has lost Internal Release and so it wasn't as much of a crit monster as it was before, Lost GL management and is now no longer the highest DPS. All Monk has from it's inception from ARR is it's positionals. As Monk players, we are literally holding onto one of the last things that made the job unique and stand out from the rest and, to top it off, Monk hasn't gained anything else unique to try and offset what was lost. Want positionals lessened? Give me a reason to want to lose positionals, don't just take them away for the sake of taking them away.

[VentVanitas]

MNK needs to identify as MNK in the same way we play a NIN and know why it's a NIN.

Positionals aren't MNK's sole identity but they are unique to the job and I believe it should stay that way for the sake of making melee DPS more different from one another.

[Kahnom]

Over the years it has lost Internal Release and so it wasn't as much of a crit monster as it was before, Lost GL management and is now no longer the highest DPS. All Monk has from it's inception from ARR is it's positionals. As Monk players, we are literally holding onto one of the last things that made the job unique and stand out from the rest and, to top it off, Monk hasn't gained anything else unique to try and offset what was lost. Want positionals lessened? Give me a reason to want to lose positionals, don't just take them away for the sake of taking them away.

Yes, they nerfed the job over the years without laid the foundations for the job to evolve.
Other dps jobs got new stuffs to work with in Stormblood but what did we got ? 3- color tackles.......
GL4 was like a big slap to players's faces. More speed is good, yes, but at the same time we also want something new, something different than ARR rotations but they failed to answer that question.
Instead, We kept getting more and more of support skills which mostly maintaing GL and that is good for a moment but at the same time, these skills won't help the job grow and finally we hit the wall in ShB.

People said MNK need identities. Well, we got identities, alright.
But those identities are getting smaller and smaller over time and right now MNK looks very small when compare to other jobs. SE shouldn't let this happen in the first place.

They were determined to fix SMN for the past few years but they left MNK in the dust like a relic from the past. Double standards, if I have to say it bluntly.

I hate being salty but it is what it is. Suck to be us, I guess.

[ssunny2008]

I didn't say MNK should be a NIN.
Also MNK being positional heavy is a crap identity. A class should be able to be identified by style, and theme as well.

It´s your opinion, not the one of a lot of players who actually enjoy the fast positional heavy gameplay. It´s a unique game-design and far away from being crap even objectively seen. There is no other game out there with a class like MNK.

MNK needs to identify as a MNK in its design as a whole. I.E.
DRG ? We might think dragons. Estinien. That burst phase. Eye of Dragon. Jumps autolock. Floor tank.
SAM ? Katana. Midare Setsugekka. Tsubame-gaeshi. Powerful strikes. Selfish, but makes up for it.
NIN ? Trick attack. Ten Chi Jin. Ninjitsu. Ninja run. Movement passive trait.
MNK ? "Oh that one job where you gotta get positionals on like every ability" and uh fists. *clap*

MNK has some good things going for it in EW though. The new abilities are flashy and make sense to its theme and design and MNK needs more of that.

EDIT: Reaper has more of an identity than MNK from what I can see in the trailer.

Your claims are just about animations, not about a gameplay identity.

- Katana? Sword? Staff? Bow? Axe? Book? Which weapon do you want?
- Midare? Melee combo? Apex-Arrow? Any finisher button when you´ve collected some signs or your gauge got filled on any class?
- Eye of the dragon? Dancepartner? Päan? Heart of stone? Any other buffs, which either effect one groupmember or the whole raid?
- Jumps? Chakra? Elixier-field? Off GCD´s at its best?
- Trick attack? Pretty much the same like a whole raidbuff, but placed as debuff on the enemy. We had more in the past, but SE was like "uuuuuh let´s rework and homogenise some classes". You could put it even together with feint or so. Boss debuffs...

Pretty much all classes have only visual identities and not gameplay-wise. Being a positional heavy class IS an identity. Playing around Mudra is an identity too. AST had more identity with his old cards and shield / curestance. But hey cards got nerfed and 6.0 destroys the last variation on it. Even SMN / SCH should have a real identity with the pet system, but it´s so worthless designed... imagine Selene and Eos would be still different and they would´ve added more on top of it and you´re forced to switch them. That would be an identity. But no, they´re there to be there and it gets even worse with 6.0 SMN and the rotation into Midare ähhh burst-primae button.

EDIT: Btw if we´re actually talking seriously about visual identities. Why the hell does ppl run with a white dress as SAM in a fight? Or half-naked as Tank? Or?! They seem to care a lot about uwu owo glam glam or being able to j... on the character instead of real class identities even in that way.

[VirusOnline]

As for positionals being part of a Monk's identity, probably not, however it has always been a key part of how the job plays in the same way that one of the key features of Black Mage is finding that spot to stand still on.



Monk used to be a quick attacking crit machine between guaranteed crit on Bootshine and Internal release increasing critical rate. It was also the highest DPS which was balanced by GL stacks and doing positionals. You want the high damage, you have to work for it.

Over the years it has lost Internal Release and so it wasn't as much of a crit monster as it was before, Lost GL management and is now no longer the highest DPS. All Monk has from it's inception from ARR is it's positionals. As Monk players, we are literally holding onto one of the last things that made the job unique and stand out from the rest and, to top it off, Monk hasn't gained anything else unique to try and offset what was lost. Want positionals lessened? Give me a reason to want to lose positionals, don't just take them away for the sake of taking them away.

I agree. And that was MNKs identity. GL speed + crit. So fast that even NIN mains have a hard time keeping up at full GL.

And that's the issue in bold I'm pointing out. It's apparent that SE no longer cares about positionals or MNKs last dying identity. It will be lessened whether we like it or not for this expansion. And hopefully because they want to completely redesign it.

Now, don't get me wrong. I like the positionals. Always have. It makes it unique but after 6,7 years of a stagnant MNK that has slowly been drained of its core identity - if one is given the ultimatum of a class redesign vs. hanging onto an archaic last stand I'll risk the redesign. The thing about BLM is that its immobility is not all it's known for. If a redesign allowed for full positionals but make it so that it's not it's only identifying factor - even better. Gameplay of a class is only part of how we come to love a job. The other part is the animations, perhaps its lore, its ability themes, etc. Right now MNK is the weakest of near all of these areas. As for positionals, though it may not be a 1:1 comparison, DRG is a close tie for it and thus lessens the positional "is our unique identity" even more.

[Sqwall]

Now, don't get me wrong. I like the positionals. Always have. It makes it unique but after 6,7 years of a stagnant MNK that has slowly been drained of its core identity - if one is given the ultimatum of a class redesign vs. hanging onto an archaic last stand I'll risk the redesign. The thing about BLM is that its immobility is not all it's known for. If a redesign allowed for full positionals but make it so that it's not it's only identifying factor - even better. Gameplay of a class is only part of how we come to love a job. The other part is the animations, perhaps its lore, its ability themes, etc. Right now MNK is the weakest of near all of these areas. As for positionals, though it may not be a 1:1 comparison, DRG is a close tie for it and thus lessens the positional "is our unique identity" even more.

I echo this completely and you said it better then I could have I suppose. When GL was taken out and all that was left was positionals and chakra...that was the nail in the coffin for old monk. Without the need to constantly worry about GL anymore, left us chakra and positionals. GL was monks identity, and the whole job centered around it and it's upkeep. Now things have changed and job is going in a new direction (thankfully), and the fact that some postionals being removed as well as GL mechanic getting reworked tells me just how much SE cares about those aspects of Monk. Positionals just aren't that important so they were lessened to make way for something new and different.

I think in a perfect world we could have a postional heavy job, we really could. But if it were to be enjoyable it would REALLY have to focus completely on positionals as it's core design. Literally making every postional fullfilled grant buffs, gauge spender, dot potency, critical hits, etc. And you would ONLY get those rewards for ONLY completing those positionals. Missing a postional would mean your DoT is less powerful, not getting a buff, not getting gauge, etc. THAT would be an identity a positional job should employ. MNK just didn't commit that way....so postionals are not it's identity. Chackra, Blitz, Crit chance, and fast gameplay are now. This is a good direction.

I have thought about if we added postionals to RDM 3 melee combo, would change it's identity? Absolutely not...it's still RDM. Adding postionals didn't change anything about White Mana/Black Mana, verflare, verholy, scorch. They would all be the same. Now if you added postionals that are required to be completed to verflare/verholy gain x3 of it's respect mana, and scroch always crits. THEN they class would be very different. MNK doesn't really offer that outside of minor potency increases...I still get leaden fist regardless if I DK from the rear. I still get twin regardless if I hit from the rear. I still get Demo DoT if I were to hit it from the flank.

[IruruCece]

It's apparent that SE no longer cares about positionals or MNKs last dying identity.

Clearly, given that we're borrowing elements from other jobs and catering to people who don't even main the job and will probably be playing something else before they even finish the MSQ. Nothing about Blitzes sounds remotely good on paper to me outside of the fancy animations. Given the increasingly negative reception to the "glow up" MCH got from people who play it more seriously than I ever have, I'm firmly in wait-and-see mode.

SE repeatedly ignored core issues with the job (chakra generation and useage, GL retention, capstone ability slowing us down for no good reason, the riddle of fire slowdown). Arguably, they never gave a single solid cow patty about Monk's identity beyond the fact that it "had GL", hence why so much of ShB's new kit was dedicated around maintaining it seemingly without any real understanding of how those abilities would be used during actual gameplay. And if they'd truly given a damn about GL, perhaps it might have been kind of them to make it so the buff didn't drain away every time they decided to flex their PS3 engine's graphical chops during a mid-fight cutscene.

The argument about positionals is particularly frustrating in that SE repeatedly de-emphasized them to the point where players openly brag on these forums about missing all of them but bootshine, because bootshine, our level 1 button, is our STRONGEST combo button. To the point where our BURST phase is about setting up opportunities to spam it! This is why the removal of GL was never a "good start." It was a dart thrown at a board, and everything else going wrong with the job was plainly ignored because it's more obvious than ever there was nobody among the devs who was giving the job the same sort of attention that everyone else was receiving.

If Endwalker can't even address the problem with Bootshine, the job deserves to languish in mediocrity no matter how many fancy anime backflips and teleports our Blitzes add to "~the aesthetic~".

[VentVanitas]

I cannot argue whether or not SE's implementation of Blitz is good for the job, we don't have all of the information we need to make that claim yet.

SE seems somewhat aware of Bootshine being too strong, (though not aware enough to just change Dragon Kick's effect entirely) since they reduced the potency in the live demonstration from 370 to 300. However even with a potency nerf it doesn't stop my concerns that it will still be too polarizing because of its forced crit and Chakra generation still making it stronger than every other combo weaponskill, and Blitz will end up being irrelevant in favour of spamming more Buttshine.

But nah, clearly Arm of the Destroyer is the one that needs an upgrade. The skill that literally no one complained about.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

...I have a idea about Leaden Fist...thought about it two days ago. I thought about the Leaden BootShine issue, and what to do about it.

I could see Leaden Fist being a stacks-style passive, similar to how Perfect Balance and Riddle of Earth function, of which buffs the next three actions that the Monk uses, both WeaponSkills and abilities.
In most cases, the Monk would either spend Leaden Fist on one GCD and two oGCDs, or two GCDs and a oGCD, which would also get rid of it before Dragon Kick activates it again; under the assumption that the Monk is going through a normal 1-2-3 GCD rotation, any way...

For a bit of elaboration, Leaden Fist would still buff BootShine, but it would also buff other actions, which may or may not exclude kick actions, while the intent behind this.. is that those buffs are relevant enough.. to not just use BootShine three times and ruin the intent of this change.

What do the rest of you think about this? Any thoughts, suggestions about buffs, or alternate suggestions to fix the issue?

[IruruCece]

What do the rest of you think about this? Any thoughts, suggestions about buffs, or alternate suggestions to fix the issue?

Your idea is better than the currently existing Leaden Fist, but lets be honest, the bar is literally laying on the ground, and you have the decency to not have brought a shovel to dig under it. I do like the idea, speaking personally, because it resolves one of the problems with Monk's overall design by making the combos more meaningful. Part of this is also addressed (potentially) by the existence of Blitzes.

The reason why bootshine spam is part of our burst phase is that it's way too damn strong. Your idea would have to come with a dramatic rework of potencies for our combos across the board. Rather than front loading our damage, I'd prefer having the finishers be where the money is. Ideally, we'd reward proper execution of our basic mechanics (postionals, we still have 4) with even more damage. Ideally we'd also flat out ignore everyone who whines that being asked to move a little to the left or right of a clearly marked place next to the boss is "hard", there's plenty of other jobs they can play.

Since I seriously doubt SE's ability to fix Monk, they probably are going to leave Leaden Fist more or less as is. The best move they're probably capable of, IMO, is to straight up remove it from the game. Regardless, there is absolutely no good reason why our level 1 dps move should have the level of outsized importance it currently enjoys. Bootshine should serve as a starter, not a goal of any sort, not as a centerpiece of our damage when we're fully buffed. We're literally the only melee in the game with that problem, and it begs the question why.