Monk Identity and Blitz ?

[Sqwall]

This is still a MMORPG and no singleplayer-game. Even FFXI is way different from this one.

In terms of scope, gameplay, and advanced technical party mechanics. FFXI TRUMPS FFXIV any day of the week. Did it have it's limitations? Yes. Was is a far more connected experience in battle, party communication, and difficulty? YES, YES, YES. Before everything went "abysesa mode" in FFXI, that game was cryptic and secretive in it's implementation in the player learning the game.

You learned that game ala "Dark Souls" style punishment. You knew when you F'ed up in FFXI.

Get to close to a Bogy in the Valkrum Dunes....wipe the whole party (maybe). Learn agro rings...Sneak/Invis...and which enemies have true sight.
Don't understand how Sneak Attack/Trick Attack worked? I learned how it worked from a tank!
Don't understand when to provoke or cast Utsusemi: Ichi/Ni....LEARN cast times and enemy attack windows...or face interrupts!
Divine Seal + curaga = WHM suicide based on how enmity worked.
Skill Chains? Magic Burst? Oh that's just a mechanic based on party weapon skill combo / magic spell finisher that required near perfect timing over a high ping server based battle system.
Over 20 jobs to balance and allow for REAL viable gameplay choices? Sure! Hell BLU was an actual job you could tank with, heal with, DPS with. It was the go to tank for some years.

So when you try to compare FFXI to FFXIV....from myself that has played FFXI from the beginning and FFXIV from the beginning (both times with 1.0 and 2.0), maybe you should understand how similar they are in scope, and how at times FFXI is SUPERIOR in party style mechanics and how each class worked with others. FFXIV may have flashy style gameplay and that's great, but when you look at how deep the party gameplay was in FFXI...it can't hold a candle to FFXIV due to how balanced it's jobs are.

FFXIV may have the technical QoL advancements that FFXI doesn't or couldn't implement, and if FFXI had a 1/3 of the QoL improvements FFXIV has...it would be just as relevant as it was back in 2004 during it's peak, and it is STILL played today by the way.

Balance DPS classes was an issue in FFXI to the point where people only wanted a BLM, RNG, RDM, BLU, or THF just to burn the mobs down fast. What what most failed to see or understand was how each and every single job had something to offer that made up for not being the best DPS in the game.

NIN - Only class that could dual wield 2 different weapons and was the main tank for about 7 years.
THF - Crit master and agro maintenance job
SAM - High DPS and Could Skill Chain with itself with high incoming TP.
RDM - Literally the jack of all trades job, kept the battles rolling with MP regen and support/detrimental magic.
DRG - Literally summoned a dragon as a pet to use in battle. Some of the best weapon skills in the game due to shear damage output.
GEO - Support magic, elemental debuffs to enhance magic/skill chain damage, great defense kit.
SCH - White and Black magic, and could fill the gaps based on party comp.
COR - Luck based job with dice, roll a certain number it increased XP gain, roll another it increased party damage.
BRD - Music based class that actually played a instrument in battle, Incredibly powerful and nearly every party that had one was melting enemies.
DNC - Party support through TP gain, MP gain, HP gain. Much like RDM.
DRK - One of the best DPS in the game due to it's high output and able to use Black magic/arcane magic. (plus it looked cool)
MNK - One of the most versatile jobs in the game due to how you could sub it with virtually anything, particularly tanks. Highest HP pool, counterattacked, dodge, boost, etc. And it was strong as hell in a Main tank scenario.

[Kahnom]

snip

Because you're incapable of playing MNK at highest level .. no... at proper level so you blame the job.Lets break down from your previous comments, shall we ?

Where is a DPS's general position in a high-stakes battle 85% of the time? The rear. So for half of your skills, you don't even need to position outside your normal location in a fight. The other three are flank positions, so you move a whopping five steps to the side of the enemy.

This alone shows that you lacks experience, not only as a MNK but as melee DPS in general.There is no way Good DRG or SAM stay 85% of the time at the rear.also you said you need to move 5 steps to shift from flank to rear positonals.
You know what ? It only took 1 step to do that. 2 steps if the boss is large size.
Now what else ?

if you're not doing your positional because of a boss mechanic, you're reducing DPS

Any veteran MNk can do the right postionals while doing mechanics without using Riddle of Earth or True North,I'd tell you.
This is not bullshit, I speak from experience.
Ok,lets move to the next one.

Positionals do not make you good at the game.

I never saw any MNK flexing about how good they are because they can do postionals perfectly.
They do positionals because its fun and that's it.
Is that all ? Oh wait, there's more !

I've always wanted to main MNK but it's not fun in its current iteration when compared to other classes.

Then how about you go play other 3 jobs instead ? They are better than MNK in every aspects, right ? And you do having fun.
No need to stress yourself over the job you hate so much, I mean you're not playing it much to begin with so why bother ?
And after everything you said, you haven't mention GL even once.So I take it all of your complains are from positionals alone ?
Oh boy....

Even with 6.0 rework, I'm pretty sure that you're probably gonna cry and ask to remove all postionals from MNK once and for all.
I'm not gonna surprised if you ask for Nin's Huton to be a trait because its too much work for you.

[Sqwall]

Even with 6.0 rework, I'm pretty sure that you're probably gonna cry and ask to remove all postionals from MNK once and for all.
I'm not gonna surprised if you ask for Nin's Huton to be a trait because its too much work for you.

uhhh... Huton literally got a one button activate in 6.0. soooooo...already better then GL ever was and I don't think any NIN mains were asking for it...don't know about you....but that's pretty much what MNK's have been asking for years and never getting it. If we did get that then GL would prolly still be around...

btw...Mudra are fun to execute and Huton has a pretty long timer.....so yeah. A one button activate goes pretty far with little work when NIN get that in 6.0.

[Raikai]

Never thought of it from that angle. That's a great comparison and one that I don't have to think about. Xenoblade/2 I never thought for a second about positionals because the game didn't put obstacles in your way to fulfill the gameplay. It was almost invisible to complete positionals in Xenoblade because like you said that game was built around that aspect of battle. FFXIV in a lot of ways is the reverse of Xenoblade. The Boss moves you have to reposition to avoid damage. Makes me think about Blitz and how it will be incorporated into MNK's overall design at 90....ugh...media tour needs to come NOW!

And not even just about the obstacles, but the server tick timing plays a huge role in making XIV's combat slug a bit. They made something great to counteract that and it's the oGCD gameplay, because it keeps your fingers busy (in most jobs) so in practice that gives flow to the action and kind of cover the slowness up. That's exactly why pre level 30 gameplay feel so boring for most melee jobs.

October the 13th is the embargo lilft, right? I bet all the videos from the youtubers will be ready and just ready to premiere that day, so we'll get a lot of footage to go through at once.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

[...]Monk has NEVER had any business being about positions. It's always been fast, multi-hit DPS[...]

In the case of FFXIV Monk.. what multi-hit, though? There are some fake multi-hit multi-hit animations, but not a single actual multi-hit attack... Not a one of the Monk actions are a (#)fold attack. I would love to see that, though... I had taken the time to examine the animations of all offensive Monk actions, and found that seven actions should be a multi-hit attack, since they have multi-hit animations...

BootShine(four punches), so this action could be a four-hits/"fourfold" attack. / The total potency of the action would be even-split across the four hits.

Four-Point Fury(two kicks), so this action could be a two-hits/"twofold" attack. / The total potency of the action would be even-split between the two hits.

The initial hit of Demolish(three punches and two kicks), so this action could be a five-hits/"fivefold" attack, and apply its DoT after the fifth hit, the second kick. / The total potency of the initial hits could be even-split across all five hits, or even make a intentional not-even split, with either the punches or kicks to hit a little more hard than the other...

Dragon Kick(two kicks), so this action could be a two-hits/"twofold" attack. / The total potency of the action would be even-split between the two hits.

The Forbidden Chakra(two smalls punches and a explosive upper-cut punch), so this action could be a three-hits/"threefold" attack. / I think that the total potency of this action should be a intentional not-even split, with the two small punches as low potency, while the explosive upper-cut punch would have most of the potency.

Tornado Kick(three kicks and a wind burst), so this action could be a four-hits/"fourfold" attack. / I think that the total potency of this action should be a intentional slight not-even split. A slight higher potency on the wind burst at the end, than the even-split potency of the three kicks prior to the wind burst.

And Six-Sided Star(three kicks), so this action could be a three-hits/"threefold" attack. / the total potency of the action would be even-split across the three kicks.

There even already exists real multi-hit attacks, like the FlameThrower with Machinist, Dream Within a Dream with Shinobi, and Phantom Flurry, Triple Trident, and Matra Magic, with Blue Mage; so we know that real multi-hits are possible, as seen with Shinobi and Blue Mage, and even as seen with in the case of enemies that use multi-hit attacks, like Gobbies with Goblin Rush or Anala's with Abacinate, for examples.

All of that said... Last, do not mind the quote at the top, as that is there just for a reference, more than a response... I would rather like to know the opinions of any of you Monk players, about this idea of mine to convert the Monks' various fake multi-hit actions, into real multi-hit actions.

[Kahnom]

uhhh... Huton literally got a one button activate in 6.0. soooooo...already better then GL ever was and I don't think any NIN mains were asking for it...don't know about you....but that's pretty much what MNK's have been asking for years and never getting it. If we did get that then GL would prolly still be around...

btw...Mudra are fun to execute and Huton has a pretty long timer.....so yeah. A one button activate goes pretty far with little work when NIN get that in 6.0.

I think GL and Huton are not the same.
GL was MNK's core mechanic. And tweaking or changing the core mechanic was always difficult because you have to change everything around it as well.
Huton is more like Sam's shifu, Both of them are support mechanic not core mechanic so they're easy to adjust.

Reducing buttons bloat are always welcome. But unlike Huton, GL ain't buttons bloat so if you made it a trait then the job would have changed completely and 5.4 was the prove of that.

They listened to players, made GL a trait but it seems like that doesn't make people want to play the job more. Hell, even the old MNK changed their main because of that.

[VirusOnline]

Additionally, just a personal gripe, removed positionals? For reals, somebody said this in another post but it's absolutely true that they just compromised with the casual monk players that haven't put the effort in that say they have too much positionals. Like either remove all (Which please please please don't do) or remove none, there is nothing wrong with the kit and yeah with the changes there might be new changes which are hard to keep up with, but having something to always go for making every attack have a purpose is what makes Monk fun. Part of the identity for me is the constant moving necessary and having Form2 require no positionals is just a weird unnecessary change. I'm very relieved they didn't remove more though, but none would have been my preferred change in that regard.

I have also played MNK in ARR. It was a brief stay until my permanent return in HW.
The positionals are in my opinion irrelevant. They aren't challenging and often times just a nuance that is at the mercy of the tank and/or boss randomly turning or due to mechanics.
The fact that MNK has as many positionals as it does and we are given two charges of TN sorta makes positionals not even matter. It's time for MNK's identity to change and not just be "that dps that needs positionals on every ability bc that's its identity".

MNK needs to identify as MNK in the same way we play a NIN and know why it's a NIN.

If I had one gripe to add - TS needs to be apart of our class bar the same way the Huton is for NIN.
The new bar is great for showing stance now please add TS. As someone with terribly vision searching for that icon can be quite hard during savage fights.

[ssunny2008]

MNK needs to identify as MNK in the same way we play a NIN and know why it's a NIN.

Don´t know what you´re talking about. The stealth actions which never get used? Or that you stay 95% of the fight behind the boss?
Only Mudra is specific. Ninjutsus is what you expect from a NIN of course as much as i would expect really fast and movement based gameplay from a MNK. I haven´t seen any MMA fighter or similar pugilists which are like "Sry bro, we don´t move today. Let´s clap in our hands instead.".

If you´ve only one positional heavy class, where the whole rotation and even escape skills are based around that, then of course it´s an identity. Both classes are even the only ones with some kind of identity imo. DRG and SAM are completely standard just with animations. Caster differences are "cast - dot - melee combo". And we don´t even need to talk about tank or healer identities.

snip

Just because some aspects are the same thx to the ff lore, doesn´t mean that the games aren´t different. They´re, because games evolve, no matter if it´s for the better or worse.

Imo i can´t even understand, when you like it so much and spread claims like "dark souls" with it, why do you want to get ride of so many "punishing / too hard" mechanics? Why do you want to have more QoL features?

Sounds more like it was your first MMO with that taste of nostalgia. Unexperience is a huge factor in the gameplay-experience, especially when the game isn´t telling you everything. If you would´ve played FF14 first, you would probably be link "Oh soooo cool, MNK yeah, wow that movement!".

[Sqwall]

Imo i can´t even understand, when you like it so much and spread claims like "dark souls" with it, why do you want to get ride of so many "punishing / too hard" mechanics? Why do you want to have more QoL features?

What qualifies as a quality of life improvement is improving that which was poor design initially.

With the current DK > Twin > Demo > Boot > True > Snap > DK > True > Snap > Boot > Twin > Demo. This is 7 movements.

For me the removal of 2 positionals. JUST TWO! Changes that 7 movements to 3.

That's over 40% reduction in movement. This is a quality of life, and also a compromise for those that like positional style gameplay. I find this a happy medium.

This also gives the job MUCH more smooth playstyle. Blitz and Chackra will be a great filler now that we will no longer have DK > Boot x3 anymore.

MNK will actually flow sooooo much better with those 2 positionals removed, and the new direction of the job has so much more freedom.

A game should have rules and punishment, and that's what makes it a game. But when those rules are actually getting in the way of a job i.e. MNK. Which is quite literally what happened to MNK over the years, it just stuck to it's strict rules of positionals and GL upkeep.

Well those rules have been loosened or completely removed. This is a good thing for the future of the job.

[VirusOnline]

Don´t know what you´re talking about. The stealth actions which never get used? Or that you stay 95% of the fight behind the boss?
Only Mudra is specific. Ninjutsus is what you expect from a NIN of course as much as i would expect really fast and movement based gameplay from a MNK. I haven´t seen any MMA fighter or similar pugilists which are like "Sry bro, we don´t move today. Let´s clap in our hands instead.".

If you´ve only one positional heavy class, where the whole rotation and even escape skills are based around that, then of course it´s an identity. Both classes are even the only ones with some kind of identity imo. DRG and SAM are completely standard just with animations. Caster differences are "cast - dot - melee combo". And we don´t even need to talk about tank or healer identities.

I didn't say MNK should be a NIN.
Also MNK being positional heavy is a crap identity. A class should be able to be identified by style, and theme as well.

MNK needs to identify as a MNK in its design as a whole. I.E.
DRG ? We might think dragons. Estinien. That burst phase. Eye of Dragon. Jumps autolock. Floor tank.
SAM ? Katana. Midare Setsugekka. Tsubame-gaeshi. Powerful strikes. Selfish, but makes up for it.
NIN ? Trick attack. Ten Chi Jin. Ninjitsu. Ninja run. Movement passive trait.
MNK ? "Oh that one job where you gotta get positionals on like every ability" and uh fists. *clap*

MNK has some good things going for it in EW though. The new abilities are flashy and make sense to its theme and design and MNK needs more of that.

EDIT: Reaper has more of an identity than MNK from what I can see in the trailer.