Monk Identity and Blitz ?

[Braven_Doomdraft]

Yes... i´m the problem as many others, because we actually want to play the game, because we want to play MNK with all his positionals.

Sorry that we want to work for our DPS instead...

Let's do an actual informed deep-dive into when you need to position for Monk, because your persecution complex surrounding positionals really needs to be torn down.

Rear: Bootshine, True Strike, Demolish.

Flank: Snap Punch, Twin Snakes, Dragon Kick.

Where is a DPS's general position in a high-stakes battle 85% of the time? The rear. So for half of your skills, you don't even need to position outside your normal location in a fight. The other three are flank positions, so you move a whopping five steps to the side of the enemy. You really think that this makes you more impressive than another DPS? It doesn't. You are an increased risk of DPS loss due to death and/or misaligning your positional on top of being one of the weakest DPS in the game.

Nothing is more casual than not understanding the intricacies of your own class and being able to identify either inconsistencies in technical gameplay and/or the reason why it isn't viable in the current climate of the game.

All classes in Final Fantasy XIV have been based on the historical jobs in the series. Monk has NEVER had any business being about positions. It's always been fast, multi-hit DPS with some self-sustaining heals and status-boosting peripheral skills. Final Fantasy XIV's Light Party - Full Party/Alliance dynamic relies on a tank that takes hate and positions enemy cleave/damage and mitigates damage, a healer who nullifies and/or recovers damage dealt to a party with some notable buffs/debuffs and DPS with different flavors, DoTs, and party synergy.

Positionals are garbage. Your complex and delusions about being "good" at the game (when all you really do is the same as any other DPS, 123, move, burst, 123, move, burst - you know, because you aren't the only class that has to position in a fight) are grossly negligent of the real problems plaguing the class and you offer ZERO valuable input insofar as improving it.

Tell me, how many times have people been impressed with you in a battle as opposed to a clinch healer or a fast-reacting tank? My guess is none. NIN, SAM, and DRG are a million times better than MNK and guess what? It's not because of its positionals. It's because their classes are designed to succeed in spite of their position on the battlefield.

[ssunny2008]

snip

I don´t need to be informed by ppl who´re always like "Nono, i don´t want to get punished for my mistakes and lazyness!". MNK is more than viable. Just because you´re not willing to play it properly and don´t want to work for the DPS outcome, doesn´t mean that positionals are a technically issue. They´ve been presented since beginning and got nerfed into the ground thx to all the whiny ppl, who haven´t even tried to get better at any job.

If you think DRG, SAM and NIN are better, then just play them and ignore MNK? Still don´t get why ppl are moaning about 1 job, when they obviously fall in love with others. We play MNK, you play something else, problem solved?!

Don´t know where you got the info "MNK is one of the weakest DPS in the game" too, when there are only 2 classes which out-DPS him for sure. And one of it depends even hard on the given mechanics, meanwhile the other is a self-carry class for whatever reason.

[Braven_Doomdraft]

If you think DRG, SAM and NIN are better, then just play them and ignore MNK? Still don´t get why ppl are moaning about 1 job, when they obviously fall in love with others. We play MNK, you play something else, problem solved?!

Don´t know where you got the info "MNK is one of the weakest DPS in the game" too, when there are only 2 classes which out-DPS him for sure. And one of it depends even hard on the given mechanics, meanwhile the other is a self-carry class for whatever reason.

I've played a Monk in every Final Fantasy game I've ever played. In FFXI, it was one of the best classes. (Speaking of a game that actually requires skill - that would be it). That's why I want to play it, but not while it's in the garbage heap. I play every job because I enjoy knowing the different aspects of each role in order to better fulfill mine in a party. It's pretty selfish of you to just care about the job's current build because you like it while completely disregarding the overwhelmingly popular belief that the job needs reworked because others want to play it/others who have played it don't like it.

So my answer to you is this: if you don't like MNK after the rework, don't play it. Play something else.

It's that simple, right?

Sources on DPS tier lists:

https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/ff14-best-dps
https://www.gamepur.com/guides/final...class-to-worst
https://us.millenium.gg/guide/19675.html
https://gamerant.com/final-fantasy-1...i-dancer-bard/

Post rework:

https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/ff14-best-dps

(Gee, it's almost like Monk needed to be completely re-imagined in order for people to want to play it. It must sting to know that you play one of the worst classes.)

[Sqwall]

(Gee, it's almost like Monk needed to be completely re-imagined in order for people to want to play it. It must sting to know that you play one of the worst classes.)

I'm kind of numb to it at this point, and it does sting. But I don't defend it like some....I embrace the bad and try to fix it. I know monk is horrible and has been for years. Your points on FFXI MNK make so much sense...and that job was light years ahead of FFXIV iteration, and it didn't need positionals to be one of the best jobs in the game. It really boils down to actually putting in the effort to design a job and monk has fallen off the table for other high profile jobs over the years. Here's to 6.0!

[ssunny2008]

I've played a Monk in every Final Fantasy game I've ever played.

This is still a MMORPG and no singleplayer-game. Even FFXI is way different from this one.

So my answer to you is this: if you don't like MNK after the rework, don't play it. Play something else.

It's that simple, right?

It would be simple yes, but it isn´t. We´re all different players and to offer 1 or 2 classes, which need more input and might be a bit punishing, is no issue. It´s a challenge for a bunch of ppl, so classes are made for them, while other classes (e.g. DNC) are made for ppl who can´t or don´t want to put work in their classes. Not everything needs to be the same or needs to cater only one part of the whole playerbase.

Sources on DPS tier lists:

https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/ff14-best-dps
https://www.gamepur.com/guides/final...class-to-worst
https://us.millenium.gg/guide/19675.html
https://gamerant.com/final-fantasy-1...i-dancer-bard/

Post rework:

https://www.gamersdecide.com/articles/ff14-best-dps

Best DPS class is different from the dps output. MNK is far away from being weak and such tier lists are more clickbaits and based on personal opinions than anything else. I just need to open the first and SAM is not on the first place. Like how with his damage output? Even without a personal touch, the take the whole game as reference, combined with the "easyness" of classes and aoe abilities etc...
It isn´t a real tier list, when we talk about dps itself. And in that case the only reference would be savage / ultimate content where SAM overshines everything mechanically based together with BLM. Both are followed by all other melees / caster, which are pretty even to each other. Only RDPS lack hard behind for reasons.

[Sqwall]

This is still a MMORPG and no singleplayer-game. Even FFXI is way different from this one.

In terms of scope, gameplay, and advanced technical party mechanics. FFXI TRUMPS FFXIV any day of the week. Did it have it's limitations? Yes. Was is a far more connected experience in battle, party communication, and difficulty? YES, YES, YES. Before everything went "abysesa mode" in FFXI, that game was cryptic and secretive in it's implementation in the player learning the game.

You learned that game ala "Dark Souls" style punishment. You knew when you F'ed up in FFXI.

Get to close to a Bogy in the Valkrum Dunes....wipe the whole party (maybe). Learn agro rings...Sneak/Invis...and which enemies have true sight.
Don't understand how Sneak Attack/Trick Attack worked? I learned how it worked from a tank!
Don't understand when to provoke or cast Utsusemi: Ichi/Ni....LEARN cast times and enemy attack windows...or face interrupts!
Divine Seal + curaga = WHM suicide based on how enmity worked.
Skill Chains? Magic Burst? Oh that's just a mechanic based on party weapon skill combo / magic spell finisher that required near perfect timing over a high ping server based battle system.
Over 20 jobs to balance and allow for REAL viable gameplay choices? Sure! Hell BLU was an actual job you could tank with, heal with, DPS with. It was the go to tank for some years.

So when you try to compare FFXI to FFXIV....from myself that has played FFXI from the beginning and FFXIV from the beginning (both times with 1.0 and 2.0), maybe you should understand how similar they are in scope, and how at times FFXI is SUPERIOR in party style mechanics and how each class worked with others. FFXIV may have flashy style gameplay and that's great, but when you look at how deep the party gameplay was in FFXI...it can't hold a candle to FFXIV due to how balanced it's jobs are.

FFXIV may have the technical QoL advancements that FFXI doesn't or couldn't implement, and if FFXI had a 1/3 of the QoL improvements FFXIV has...it would be just as relevant as it was back in 2004 during it's peak, and it is STILL played today by the way.

Balance DPS classes was an issue in FFXI to the point where people only wanted a BLM, RNG, RDM, BLU, or THF just to burn the mobs down fast. What what most failed to see or understand was how each and every single job had something to offer that made up for not being the best DPS in the game.

NIN - Only class that could dual wield 2 different weapons and was the main tank for about 7 years.
THF - Crit master and agro maintenance job
SAM - High DPS and Could Skill Chain with itself with high incoming TP.
RDM - Literally the jack of all trades job, kept the battles rolling with MP regen and support/detrimental magic.
DRG - Literally summoned a dragon as a pet to use in battle. Some of the best weapon skills in the game due to shear damage output.
GEO - Support magic, elemental debuffs to enhance magic/skill chain damage, great defense kit.
SCH - White and Black magic, and could fill the gaps based on party comp.
COR - Luck based job with dice, roll a certain number it increased XP gain, roll another it increased party damage.
BRD - Music based class that actually played a instrument in battle, Incredibly powerful and nearly every party that had one was melting enemies.
DNC - Party support through TP gain, MP gain, HP gain. Much like RDM.
DRK - One of the best DPS in the game due to it's high output and able to use Black magic/arcane magic. (plus it looked cool)
MNK - One of the most versatile jobs in the game due to how you could sub it with virtually anything, particularly tanks. Highest HP pool, counterattacked, dodge, boost, etc. And it was strong as hell in a Main tank scenario.

[Kahnom]

snip

Because you're incapable of playing MNK at highest level .. no... at proper level so you blame the job.Lets break down from your previous comments, shall we ?

Where is a DPS's general position in a high-stakes battle 85% of the time? The rear. So for half of your skills, you don't even need to position outside your normal location in a fight. The other three are flank positions, so you move a whopping five steps to the side of the enemy.

This alone shows that you lacks experience, not only as a MNK but as melee DPS in general.There is no way Good DRG or SAM stay 85% of the time at the rear.also you said you need to move 5 steps to shift from flank to rear positonals.
You know what ? It only took 1 step to do that. 2 steps if the boss is large size.
Now what else ?

if you're not doing your positional because of a boss mechanic, you're reducing DPS

Any veteran MNk can do the right postionals while doing mechanics without using Riddle of Earth or True North,I'd tell you.
This is not bullshit, I speak from experience.
Ok,lets move to the next one.

Positionals do not make you good at the game.

I never saw any MNK flexing about how good they are because they can do postionals perfectly.
They do positionals because its fun and that's it.
Is that all ? Oh wait, there's more !

I've always wanted to main MNK but it's not fun in its current iteration when compared to other classes.

Then how about you go play other 3 jobs instead ? They are better than MNK in every aspects, right ? And you do having fun.
No need to stress yourself over the job you hate so much, I mean you're not playing it much to begin with so why bother ?
And after everything you said, you haven't mention GL even once.So I take it all of your complains are from positionals alone ?
Oh boy....

Even with 6.0 rework, I'm pretty sure that you're probably gonna cry and ask to remove all postionals from MNK once and for all.
I'm not gonna surprised if you ask for Nin's Huton to be a trait because its too much work for you.

[Sqwall]

Even with 6.0 rework, I'm pretty sure that you're probably gonna cry and ask to remove all postionals from MNK once and for all.
I'm not gonna surprised if you ask for Nin's Huton to be a trait because its too much work for you.

uhhh... Huton literally got a one button activate in 6.0. soooooo...already better then GL ever was and I don't think any NIN mains were asking for it...don't know about you....but that's pretty much what MNK's have been asking for years and never getting it. If we did get that then GL would prolly still be around...

btw...Mudra are fun to execute and Huton has a pretty long timer.....so yeah. A one button activate goes pretty far with little work when NIN get that in 6.0.

[Kahnom]

uhhh... Huton literally got a one button activate in 6.0. soooooo...already better then GL ever was and I don't think any NIN mains were asking for it...don't know about you....but that's pretty much what MNK's have been asking for years and never getting it. If we did get that then GL would prolly still be around...

btw...Mudra are fun to execute and Huton has a pretty long timer.....so yeah. A one button activate goes pretty far with little work when NIN get that in 6.0.

I think GL and Huton are not the same.
GL was MNK's core mechanic. And tweaking or changing the core mechanic was always difficult because you have to change everything around it as well.
Huton is more like Sam's shifu, Both of them are support mechanic not core mechanic so they're easy to adjust.

Reducing buttons bloat are always welcome. But unlike Huton, GL ain't buttons bloat so if you made it a trait then the job would have changed completely and 5.4 was the prove of that.

They listened to players, made GL a trait but it seems like that doesn't make people want to play the job more. Hell, even the old MNK changed their main because of that.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

[...]Monk has NEVER had any business being about positions. It's always been fast, multi-hit DPS[...]

In the case of FFXIV Monk.. what multi-hit, though? There are some fake multi-hit multi-hit animations, but not a single actual multi-hit attack... Not a one of the Monk actions are a (#)fold attack. I would love to see that, though... I had taken the time to examine the animations of all offensive Monk actions, and found that seven actions should be a multi-hit attack, since they have multi-hit animations...

BootShine(four punches), so this action could be a four-hits/"fourfold" attack. / The total potency of the action would be even-split across the four hits.

Four-Point Fury(two kicks), so this action could be a two-hits/"twofold" attack. / The total potency of the action would be even-split between the two hits.

The initial hit of Demolish(three punches and two kicks), so this action could be a five-hits/"fivefold" attack, and apply its DoT after the fifth hit, the second kick. / The total potency of the initial hits could be even-split across all five hits, or even make a intentional not-even split, with either the punches or kicks to hit a little more hard than the other...

Dragon Kick(two kicks), so this action could be a two-hits/"twofold" attack. / The total potency of the action would be even-split between the two hits.

The Forbidden Chakra(two smalls punches and a explosive upper-cut punch), so this action could be a three-hits/"threefold" attack. / I think that the total potency of this action should be a intentional not-even split, with the two small punches as low potency, while the explosive upper-cut punch would have most of the potency.

Tornado Kick(three kicks and a wind burst), so this action could be a four-hits/"fourfold" attack. / I think that the total potency of this action should be a intentional slight not-even split. A slight higher potency on the wind burst at the end, than the even-split potency of the three kicks prior to the wind burst.

And Six-Sided Star(three kicks), so this action could be a three-hits/"threefold" attack. / the total potency of the action would be even-split across the three kicks.

There even already exists real multi-hit attacks, like the FlameThrower with Machinist, Dream Within a Dream with Shinobi, and Phantom Flurry, Triple Trident, and Matra Magic, with Blue Mage; so we know that real multi-hits are possible, as seen with Shinobi and Blue Mage, and even as seen with in the case of enemies that use multi-hit attacks, like Gobbies with Goblin Rush or Anala's with Abacinate, for examples.

All of that said... Last, do not mind the quote at the top, as that is there just for a reference, more than a response... I would rather like to know the opinions of any of you Monk players, about this idea of mine to convert the Monks' various fake multi-hit actions, into real multi-hit actions.