Monk Identity and Blitz ?

[ssunny2008]

While I don't support MNK losing its positionals, the argument that it's impossible for a melee class to have an engaging design without positionals is just nonsense to those of us who have played melee classes in other games.

Other games have way complexer designs than FF14. You can´t compare them that much...Just take 2 serious trinity MMORPG´s as example. Starwars the old Republic and World of Warcraft. (especially SWTOR)

- Both of them have a GCD time from 1,5s! FF14 has 2,5s, which is way slower in comparison. Not even MNK is able to reach that. Therefore you´ve 100 years time to place your positionals and to play your rotation easily.

- Then those other games has priority skills, not a flat rotation which is nearly 100% timed on the given content like it is in FF14.

- On top of that, you still have to care about dots, movement, healthbars and DPS checks. In other games you don´t spam buffs on cooldown since they´ve 5 minute cooldowns or something. The most fights have huge DPS checks where you need your cooldowns. DPS might has to kill or interupt adds asap, meanwhile tanking them on their own, because the tank have to take care about 1 or more bosses. You do even have tools to take an add out of the game for a while and if you don´t do that, you´re going to die.

Tanks on the other hand have to use cooldowns wisely, because they don´t have "invul gg". They have to take care about a bunch of skills, which either increase their armor or debuff the enemy. They might need to kite, they need to tankswap every couple of seconds, they´ve to take care for adds with massive taunts and what the most important thing might be, they´ve to be the first in the aggro-list. There is no braindead tankstance, they need to know their stuff.

Healers are not 100% DPS classes like it is in this game too. You need to focus on the stuff you´re doing. You don´t have 10 off gcd heals and maybe only 1 aoe heal. Between your heals there might be time to put a DoT on the boss and that´s it, just because everyone will get damaged through different mechanics, which aren´t perfect in line with an AST star or assise, whatever. You´ve to focus and take care for everyone at any time especially when a boss spread random DoTs.

- As next all classes have ressources to manage. You can´t just play 123, you need to swap between your hard hitters and ressoruce skills. That´s why you´ve priority skills and you need to keep an eye on them, otherwise you´re going to lose a lot of DPS or in case of some heal characters, you´re going to lose life to gain ressources.

- All classes are played different. Tanks for example might be divided in an armortank, a shieldtank and an evasiontank, while the 1st might be more a single-target maintank, the 3rd an add-tank and the 2nd something in between.
Healers on the other side might be caster or some mechanical healers. SWTOR went even so far, that the force-healer have been the only ones, who´re able to cleanse force-debuffs, meanwhile the others took care for phys. / techn. debuffs. And all of them had to play completely different around their ressources.
Even DPS classes have their souls and aren´t homogenized in any way, but all of them are fast and fun. You´ve way more to do than punching a boss for 10mins. You´ve to play mechanics on your own, you need to use your DPS and def cd´s wisely, you might have to swap between bosses permanently or kite one on your own.

- Pretty much all of them has/had different skilltrees too. You could prepare much better for what is coming, change between burst or DoT´s on the same class. Mabye even more defs, less utility cooldowns or bigger aoe´s on the same class.

- And again, 1,5s VS 2,5s standard GCD. It´s really like 100 years of time for decision makings.

And that´s just the classes... based on the most given content, you don´t have 10s longs castbars, stack / spread markers or whatever. You don´t have the expected early aoe / tb, bosses will hit hard anyway and sometimes lose aggro randomly on purpose. You´ve multiple bosses at once or need to make use of the arena / the boss itself to kill adds.

Man i really could write and endless posts about FF14 and other trinity MMORPG´s. But in core it should be enough.

As summary:

- 1.5s VS 2.5s GCD
- multiple bosses with different mechanics, which force everything of any class VS one boss with well scripted mechanics, stack´n´spread and move to marker A stuff.
- different subclasses with different stats, a different ressource-management, skills, skilltrees and a different gameplay VS homogenized subclasses with pretty much the same skills, roleskills, a perfect lined 123 rotation, no real ressources to care about and a gauge to fill.

If you´ve played atleast 1 of the 2 named MMORPG´s, you should know that difference and why such games can live without positionals. They´re way more complex, force more out of the players and of course they´re faster and more movement depended. They don´t have multiple rezzes or healer LB3.
Playing melee in FF14 without positionals would be lame af. Just play a tank once in the current content and you know how boring it´s going to be. All you´ve to do is to spam invul or all other defs in a tankbuster, go OT if you want to watch netflix nearby while playing 123. Range-DPS classes are pretty much the same so...

[Sqwall]

Just out of shear curiosity. If SAM had it's current kit, and included 6 positionals. And MNK had it's current kit with 2 positionals...would you still play MNK if you're gratification solely came from positional style gameplay as most are saying it does.

Would you play SAM if it had it's current kit, and had 6 positionals. Identity aside...just the rules of the job.

Would you find SAM a better design job?

[ssunny2008]

Just out of shear curiosity. If SAM had it's current kit, and included 6 positionals. And MNK had it's current kit with 2 positionals...would you still play MNK if you're gratification solely came from positional style gameplay as most are saying it does.

Would you play SAM if it had it's current kit, and had 6 positionals. Identity aside...just the rules of the job.

Would you find SAM a better design job?

I know where this is going, but you miss way too much points to ask a smart question like this.

Of course, any melee would be somehow more enjoyable to play with more positionals. Nothing is more boring than stay half afk while playing 123. I would even vote for range-depended DPS on MCH / DNC / BRD to actually make use of their movement.

But there is still a gap between MNK and SAM. MNK´s whole kit fits well together. You´re fast, you´ve straight combo actions with low buff durations and nothing breaks this movement chain. You are always in movement, it´s just a well-rounded design. SAM on the other hand has long buff durations and the rotation would break with any midare or higabana. It would never feel so smooth to play.

That said, i´d welcome more positionals on SAM, but i would welcome it way more, if SAM would be adjusted to the positionals with lower durations and midare as off-gcd or positional-based without a castbar. But on the other hand, as long as MNK has it´s core and 6 positionals, we don´t need a MNK 2.0 with a katana. If anything i want TRUE-MNK back with fists of wind. More speed is always welcome.

[Sqwall]

I know where this is going, but you miss way too much points to ask a smart question like this.

Of course, any melee would be somehow more enjoyable to play with more positionals. Nothing is more boring than stay half afk while playing 123. I would even vote for range-depended DPS on MCH / DNC / BRD to actually make use of their movement.

But there is still a gap between MNK and SAM. MNK´s whole kit fits well together. You´re fast, you´ve straight combo actions with low buff durations and nothing breaks this movement chain. You are always in movement, it´s just a well-rounded design. SAM on the other hand has long buff durations and the rotation would break with any midare or higabana. It would never feel so smooth to play.

That said, i´d welcome more positionals on SAM, but i would welcome it way more, if SAM would be adjusted to the positionals with lower durations and midare as off-gcd or positional-based without a castbar. But on the other hand, as long as MNK has it´s core and 6 positionals, we don´t need a MNK 2.0 with a katana. If anything i want TRUE-MNK back with fists of wind. More speed is always welcome.

You didn't answer the question.
The question was: Would you play SAM if it had it's current kit, and had 6 positionals. Idenity aside...just the rules of the job.

I didn't ask to change the job to fit how it would work for you.

[ssunny2008]

You didn't answer the question.
The question was: Would you play SAM if it had it's current kit, and had 6 positionals. Idenity aside...just the rules of the job.

I didn't ask to change the job to fit how it would work for you.

If you can´t interprete "Melees would be more enjoyable to play with more positionals." as "I would play SAM.", then i don´t know.

[wereotter]

You didn't answer the question.
The question was: Would you play SAM if it had it's current kit, and had 6 positionals. Idenity aside...just the rules of the job.

I didn't ask to change the job to fit how it would work for you.

Weighing in as well.... but to me the answer would be no, I still wouldn't play samurai with six positionals. But there's more that separates samurai and monk than just the positinal attacks. Sure more movement would make samruai more interresting, however, there are also major differences. Monk values an extremely low GCD, a trait that it shares with really only BLM. SAM doesn't want to be as fast, which makes the play experience of the two jobs substantially different.

Additionally, I DID play samurai just as much as monk in Stormblood, however, with the changes to samurai in shadowbringers that nerfed hagakure into the ground, and the increased reliance in iajutsu, I found that the high pitched noises of the windup attack were causing me severe headaches and making me physically sick. I can't even play next to a samurai at this point without that problem and had to turn off the sounds made by all other players just to prevent this. So again, no.

All that said, if monk lost its positional attacks AND lost its speed, I'd probably go to playing dragoon where there is more movement, or machinist since at least its overhead window is super high speed.

[Sqwall]

Of course, any melee would be somehow more enjoyable to play with more positionals. Nothing is more boring than stay half afk while playing 123. I would even vote for range-depended DPS on MCH / DNC / BRD to actually make use of their movement. B

So by this logic tanks are boring to play sense they have no positionals. Are you suggesting to spice things up a bit that the Main Tank needs to hit a flank every once in a while?

And Ranged is just as boring to play as it should incorporate movement for range-movement style DPS.

Somehow I doubt the r.DPS would like to be constantly moving to do damage. Having to sit at max range to rDPS or something like that would be a raid design nightmare.

[Kabooa]

Somehow I doubt the r.DPS would like to be constantly moving to do damage. Having to sit at max range to rDPS or something like that would be a raid design nightmare.

I'd welcome context sensitive commands, and having it based on distance would take advantage of Range mobility and give them a unique game goal to work for.

[ssunny2008]

So by this logic tanks are boring to play sense they have no positionals. Are you suggesting to spice things up a bit that the Main Tank needs to hit a flank every once in a while?

Tanks are boring to play for a lot of reasons, especially thx to SHB. And it would even possible for the MT to perform positionals, bosses don´t turn or attack every ~15s in their 5s castbar so, why not?

And Ranged is just as boring to play as it should incorporate movement for range-movement style DPS.

Somehow I doubt the r.DPS would like to be constantly moving to do damage.

I haven´t said anything about "sitting on max range" or that it have to be a permanent thing. But hey, other games have such stuff too on archer classes and it works fine.
Not to mention that we´ve already a system like this on any melee classes. It´s called "max - melee - range" and it´s used in a lot of fights more than once. So i´m pretty sure every decent RDPS player would make it happen easily.

Having to sit at max range to rDPS or something like that would be a raid design nightmare.

I don´t know why you, someone who doesn´t raid properly and surely haven´t even touched savage, is claiming such stuff. It would be like positionals, you don´t need them for everything which is not savage or ultimate. There is no need that casuals have to take care about them, if it would be a thing one day.

EDIT: For the most guys it would probably even increase the damage, since they stay at the end of nowhere, aren´t able to stay with the group and don´t move into any healer-bubble anyway.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Just out of shear curiosity. If SAM had it's current kit, and included 6 positionals. And MNK had it's current kit with 2 positionals...would you still play MNK if you're gratification solely came from positional style gameplay as most are saying it does.

Would you play SAM if it had it's current kit, and had 6 positionals. Identity aside...just the rules of the job.

Would you find SAM a better design job?

let us think about this in a more deep manner, for a moment... Samurai has two positional requirements. Kasha at flank and Gecko at rear...
Let us add four positional requirements, then. Shifu at flank, Jinpu at Rear, YukiKaze at rear, and.. hmn... how about Hissatsu: Seigan at flank?

now, then... Samurai with six positional requirements.

Would you play this? would Sunny? would I? I would still play Samurai, since Samurai would not be more difficult because of this, in my opinion...
To be honest, I would not even care much.. and just hit the positional requirements, while in the case of hissatsu: Seigan... If you imagine that being its potency 220 and potency 250 on positional...I just raised the skill ceiling, with no impact at all on the skill floor, since many Samurai players do not even use Third Eye, let alone Hissatsu: Seigan.