Monk Identity and Blitz ?

[Aelin_Ashryver]

I really dislike them removing positionals on form 2. Monk is the positional heavy melee, players asking for the postionals removed I don't get.. You have DRG, SAM, NIN and soon reaper to play instead. Why change a job you barely play to suit you and screw over the monk mains who love the movement the job requires? #
Aside from the capitulation to the woe is me too many positional ppl. I like the look of the monk now. It was one of my fave jobs in stormblood along with smn, ast and drk. But in shadowbringers it felt a bit less nice.. it got better and then got weird when they remove the 4th greased lightning stack since that was it's whole schtick for that expansion.
The new dash looks cool! I still wish it actually did damage though.. I am not likely to dash to allies often. I can position myself just fine!

[Leonus]

...

Because mnk is the least played melee job. A lot of people find or found mnk really cool aesthetically but did not enjoy the gameplay.

Maybe they don't like the other melee and only want to play mnk?

There are plenty of reasons for changes. It's bigger than just "don't take my positional away because it makes me better than the casual next to me.". There are game mechanics on the dungeon and trial side that can do that way better.

Removing 2 positional requirements is really not that big of a deal in the grand scheme.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

Because mnk is the least played melee job. A lot of people find or found mnk really cool aesthetically but did not enjoy the gameplay.

Maybe they don't like the other melee and only want to play mnk?

There are plenty of reasons for changes. It's bigger than just "don't take my positional away because it makes me better than the casual next to me.". There are game mechanics on the dungeon and trial side that can do that way better.

Removing 2 positional requirements is really not that big of a deal in the grand scheme.

I like the big booms of the black mage, I would love to play it more but the static nature of the job does not suit me. Devs should not suddenly change the BLM to suit me, a person who does not play the job. Because ultimately even if they do I likely would not main the job and I would wager that it is the case with some people who like the look of monk but didn't like the positionals.. how likely are they to stick on a job that is STILL busy? Just a bit less so now. There was nothing to stop them playing it before, I am doing no "casual" shaming here... they could play it before and so long as they stuck to abc's and were making SOME effort they wouldn't miss that many positionals. Jobs don't need dumbing down for people that are not even commited to the job.

There will be a least played of every subclass. Changing things that made that niche class so nice for its dedicated players is about the most awful thing you could do for that playerbase, even if it is smaller than the one you are currently trying to reach. You as a dev prove that you will not respect the players investment and will change on a dime if a crowd big enough demands a change that is not even really needed. You can still play monk, you can clear all the most basic of content and miss the majority of your positionals and still clear it as it's so scaled down. If you can't clear savage etc with the job maybe consider another one as it is not for you, as BLM is not for me.

It's not just 2 positionals, it is the entire game overall being dumbed down and slowed down. All my Stormblood fave's Astro, DRK, MNK. All have been/getting slowed down and more simple. They bring down the skill ceiling and overall they are not really moving the skill FLOOR at all. If you missed your positionals in ShB you're gonna miss em in EW.. you just gonna have 2 fewer now. But for those who WANT that extra little thing to strive for, to perfect. It's gone. And removing that is unacceptable.

[AndieEldritch]

I really dislike them removing positionals on form 2. Monk is the positional heavy melee, players asking for the postionals removed I don't get.. You have DRG, SAM, NIN and soon reaper to play instead.

The loss of form 2 positional's does hurt a little here too. But on the other hand we retain that flank to rear gameplay with our beginning and end in the core rotation so the flow will be affected a little less than I first thought.
The added layer of the Chakra system has really excited me though, Monk is being pushed towards having a more reactive combat style with the mix-up combos replacing the kinda static burst window we have DK-BS, provided that the combos are consistent with the flow the of fight we are in I think it could be a great new system, it looked to be the case in the trailer - the AOE rotation being a nice big explosion and the single target finisher being the Starshower is a great way to change up the gameplay while retaining the core of what makes Monk fun (Personally).

Hoping SSS gets a tweak to a normal GCD and/or is placed as a Tornado kick replacing OGCD CD.

The loss of GL, Fist stances and shoulder tackle is a interesting one, that's most of our traits gone. Will be eagerly awaiting to see what traits we have instead now.
New dash is pretty cool, comes with the utility tax, but feels a little more in line with the job fantasy to me.

Overall I think this is a net positive for a more varied and engaging system - Time will tell obviously.

[IruruCece]

I really dislike them removing positionals on form 2. Monk is the positional heavy melee, players asking for the postionals removed I don't get.. You have DRG, SAM, NIN and soon reaper to play instead. Why change a job you barely play to suit you and screw over the monk mains who love the movement the job requires? #
Aside from the capitulation to the woe is me too many positional ppl. I like the look of the monk now. It was one of my fave jobs in stormblood along with smn, ast and drk. But in shadowbringers it felt a bit less nice.. it got better and then got weird when they remove the 4th greased lightning stack since that was it's whole schtick for that expansion.
The new dash looks cool! I still wish it actually did damage though.. I am not likely to dash to allies often. I can position myself just fine!

Reaper has positionals, and I guarantee players who barely play it will call for their removal a year from now. Maybe less. People have been calling for their removal on jobs they barely play for a long time now.

Accessibility is tossed around as an excuse, and I find it increasingly harder and harder to take seriously. They've already de-emphasized positionals on every other job in the game to the extent where they have very few to worry about, and that missing them is barely a blip on their DPS. And yet they still complain, because they feel "punished" for missing them, and that's another line of criticism I just can't take seriously.

"I want to be performing at my best at all times" they say. If you tell them to land their positionals anyway, whenever they can, they find something else to complain about. They want to have the same output as players who actually put serious effort into the job, but they don't want to put in the same effort, and frankly that's a crap way to balance any game. This would be like me going into black mage threads and demanding that they perform a serious button cull, while turning the job into a more "combo" based system like other jobs I enjoy, like say Samurai or Monk.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

I don't think positionals need to be removed or de-emphasized in every job. I just think that not every melee job needs to have positionals. That Reaper has positionals at all is disappointing to me and it relegates the job to something I'll level just to level, and then never actually play it because I really don't like positionals that go beyond "hit it from the back". Any job that has positionals that requires me to dance between rear and flank basically gets leveled and then put in the bin for me. I'm not saying I want other jobs to have their positions removed or de-emphasized, I just wish Reaper could have been a melee job that doesn't have any positionals. Are there even any melee jobs currently that don't have any positionals at all? If not... would it be so bad to have one?

[IruruCece]

If not... would it be so bad to have one?

A melee job without positionals would be fine if those players are also happy being MCH-tier dps, sure, because that is where such a job would deserve to be.

Jobs that demand less from an individual player should be less personally rewarding (in terms of Big DPS numbers) and instead be more about enhancing other players in the group. Were I a nin-main instead of being trash at that job, I'd be pretty peeved that SE made a melee job that was both less mechanically demanding yet somehow more powerful than mine, because a good nin has to put in more effort than players who want positionals out of the game are often willing to put into the jobs they want positionals removed from. You yourself just said that jobs with any positionals are things you barely play. Why should their design cater to you in the least? There are other jobs whose gameplay hew closer to what you want mechanically.

But those players would (rightfully) complain that their job is too streamlined AND too weak (a problem that MCH is currently going through). To maintain a job that has zero positionals means that it needs other trade-offs, so what are SE's options? Add more mechanical complexity to job? Add cast timers? I guarantee that melee players who are complaining about positionals would also be upset if the job added either one of those things, too.

If you want a melee that doesn't worry about positionals for themselves whatsoever, play a tank. But in all honesty, and I mean this without any malice, it doesn't sound like melee dps in FFXIV is for you. And until SE does make such a job, or finally caves, they probably won't be.

I don't think positionals need to be removed or de-emphasized in every job.

The problem is that they have been de-emphasized for every melee job as of Endwalker. They are removing some from Monk, and for every other melee DPS that has them, SE has regularly reduced their value over the course of THREE expansions now to cater to people who aren't even regularly playing those jobs, who don't take them into content that is actually demanding in any way. They have been de-emphasized to the point where they can be pretty much ignored on every other melee except Monk and Dragoon, and their output is barely affected.

There's really very few ways for SE to fix that particular problem. One would be to make positionals hit considerably harder... but players who hate positionals would complain they are being "punished" for missing them. They could make it so that positionals are required to continue combos/get big pay off attacks... but those players would complain about that as well. Positionals upset them, complexity upsets them, and consequences for failing to keep up with their job's own mechanics upsets them, and one or all three of those things drives them off to play something else.

I don't think SE should be trying to design one or any job specifically to keep those kinds of players happy, and we've already seen what happens to jobs where they have tried to make everyone in the argument happy. It's called Monk (and also all the healers and tanks).

[Ardour]

But those players would (rightfully) complain that their job is too streamlined AND too weak (a problem that MCH is currently going through). To maintain a job that has zero positionals means that it needs other trade-offs, so what are SE's options? Add more mechanical complexity to job? Add cast timers? I guarantee that melee players who are complaining about positionals would also be upset if the job added either one of those things, too.

Maintaining melee uptime is a challenge innate to the role that's frankly already more difficult and impactful than landing positionals. While I don't support MNK losing its positionals, the argument that it's impossible for a melee class to have an engaging design without positionals is just nonsense to those of us who have played melee classes in other games.

Ranged DPS is a different story since the role truly has no innate drawbacks, but even then, BRD/DNC's heavily proc-based design has proven to be a reasonable (if imperfect) solution to the problem. A melee job with a similar level of randomization to those jobs could certainly be difficult enough to warrant strong DPS numbers. In fact, I could easily imagine it ending up more difficult than the current melee DPS paradigm of more or less extremely static rotations with minor potency gains from positionals.

At the end of the day, positionals are just one way of adding depth to a class, in the same way that DoTs or procs are just one way of adding depth to a class. Arguing that every melee job needs to have positionals makes about as much sense to me as arguing that every caster needs to have DoTs. It's just unimaginative and promotes a homogenized role design for no good reason.

[Mezzoforte]

I really dislike them removing positionals on form 2. Monk is the positional heavy melee, players asking for the postionals removed I don't get.. You have DRG, SAM, NIN and soon reaper to play instead. Why change a job you barely play to suit you and screw over the monk mains who love the movement the job requires? #
Aside from the capitulation to the woe is me too many positional ppl. I like the look of the monk now. It was one of my fave jobs in stormblood along with smn, ast and drk. But in shadowbringers it felt a bit less nice.. it got better and then got weird when they remove the 4th greased lightning stack since that was it's whole schtick for that expansion.
The new dash looks cool! I still wish it actually did damage though.. I am not likely to dash to allies often. I can position myself just fine!

It not doing damage is actually the best part. Now you can use it solely for positioning. Giving you more uptime and doing some really cute types of movements that let you keep that GCD rolling. That is one of the things I hate about Gunbreaker is I am forced to expend my gap-closers for damage and never use them for actually closing gaps. It is annoying and constantly bothers the hell out of me. I will trade you :^)

[Aelin_Ashryver]

It not doing damage is actually the best part. Now you can use it solely for positioning. Giving you more uptime and doing some really cute types of movements that let you keep that GCD rolling. That is one of the things I hate about Gunbreaker is I am forced to expend my gap-closers for damage and never use them for actually closing gaps. It is annoying and constantly bothers the hell out of me. I will trade you :^)

I do understand that for sure ^^ The dash animation itself if for sure very nice I am happy with it! I will get used to the new dash I am sure. I am rather out of practice on my monk since I dropped the job once they did that little rework a while ago in favour of waiting to see what they do in EW. Do understand the need to just blow the dash for dmg during burst windows. I have been playing GNB a fair bit lately and find myself doing the exact same thing, to then find I could really use that gap closer about 20 seconds later.. rofl
Pros and cons, more the feeling for me ykno? DAMAGE RAAHHH I am hopeful I can get back to enjoying the zoomie feel of monk and not mind the missing positionals too much with the chakra's to keep me busy.