My Eulogy for Machinist

[Payotz]

Granted, they flat out said that job design and gameplay will be easier than Shadowbringers. Sure, okay, fuck it, we can't blame you for following the money.
BUT GOD DAMN, literally adding UTILITY, and restoring the old Physical Ranged identity is HARD FOR THESE PEOPLE.
SCH's Combat Peloton, RDM's magic raid buff, hell even just a nerfed version of Refresh or old Palisade, or even bringing back old class specific utility like Dismantle would be a GOOD FIRST STEP to fixing Physical Ranged.

WHY ARE THESE DEVS SO ADAMANT IN KEEPING PHYSICAL RANGED AS BABY'S FIRST DPS? What about the actual Physical Ranged players BEFORE the reworks Devs? What about us?
Why is an UNCONTROLLABLE 1% PARTY BUFF, the ONLY reason why people bring Ranged Physicals? Why can't it be just that AND actual utility? Why are we still stuck with the same goddamn 180 second cd Reprisal clone?
Why can't we use CC on E8S adds? Why does a fucking Ninja and a Dragoon have more raid buffs than a PHYSICAL RANGED JOB, the Role that had the identity of UTILITY DPS?

There's a LOT of valid criticism over the past TWO YEARS over the "Physical Ranged rework", and ALMOST NOTHING has EVEN BEEN CONSIDERED into the job design.
WE ARE PAYING TO PLAY YOUR GAME TOO. CONSIDER OUR FEEDBACK AS WELL FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.

Christ if you guys are so adamant on destroying what fun we've had with a role, you might as well turn Physical ranged's rotation into Healers. Just give it one GCD, one DoT and one Multitarget GCD.
That will 110% boost your Physical Ranged player numbers. Do it and roll in the money.

Fuck this game.

[Shironeko_Narunyan]

Fuck this game.

Can I have your stuff?

[Jirah]

Except Bard's current kit is exactly what people have been complaining about. I know you don't see the small nuisances of SB Bard as a big loss but the same could be argued for how others view SB Machinist to ShB Machinist. SB Bard players want that complexity back because the majority of their gameplay revolves around spamming Burst Shot. While I'd like to be optimistic about the "Crescendo" song ability they showed off. It's hard to get excited over anything related to the song buffs when they're so damn boring. Apex Arrower is probably the last thing anyone wanted.

Simply put, Bard isn't being trivialized like Dancer because they already accomplished that in ShB. Dancer's just late to the party.

I’ve heard complaints ranged from not being SB and it being too hard with none of them meeting halfway. Which is hard to take seriously, probably hypocritical of me but it’s hard to get SB back without it’s core supplies that they removed beyond from everyone, and any desire to break more jobs for accessible sake is not tolerated and should be ignored givin how it’s a big possibility of SMN outcome

Also DNC buff always seem to be the same to me except picking a dance partner, it’s all automatic you can’t deter away from it because it also effects you and your phase overall dps, BV for example can be deployed whenever giving you some chance of optimizing, technic devilment cannot. Their best buff is Walz because it has a variable, group up for stronger heals and wish more support aligns with this printable not “use for 0.6% more defense” where you never feel the contribution

In short due to the games small stature ,BRD isn’t lacking support skills, support skills can’t be varied enough to feel like support, and it isn’t too difficult to manage, DNC and MCH are too lenient on their approach. Making BRD the worst of both world, but both worlds aren’t utopias

[Miziliti]

I thought we agreed on that we hated heat blast spam. I was sad it didn't get any change. I've had it for 2 years. Done with MCH from the looks of it.

[CKNovel]

SB MCH was at a dead end... Because of how Wildfire used to work.
Every new cooldown they could add would be incorporated into Wildfire combo. Making the combo bigger and complex until you can't weave anything in there.
And at this point, it would be choosing what to cram into wildfire.

For a quick reminder, SB Wildfire was meant to eat all damage, not just GCD to increase its potency.
If I play MCH it's for its visuals and appeals, I don't care about any other DPS or gameplay.

One point about complexity:
Flamethrower and tick fishing is one of the most complex (and annoying) aspect of MCH.
It's not a fun tool to use in AoE or tick fishing case.

Casuals don't use it the optimal way, they don't actually care about the optimal way, yet they are adamant on keeping it.
If a button too complex was to be added, same scenario would occur.

Like how many of you probably experienced the "Healers shouldn't DPS" and any other jobs played wrong.
They don't care about optimizing complex rotations, but they fear its existence.

[Jirah]

You also have the other side of the coin for a problem. World of Warcraft suffers from always wanting to make changes instead of keeping to what works. They are falling apart and have some of the worst class design in existence. I much rather SE keep making tiny or no changes to some classes or abilities while making larger changes where needed than simply wanting change for changes sake. Stagnation isnt by definition bad just like change isnt by definition good.

As for what they should add to machinist. I think for flashy and flavour they should make queen no longer be an automated DOT like doll. But instead when you summon queen you can start using abilities/attacks and expend heat to "charge her" further. The more you do the more weapons can be beamed down to equip her. Then after the equip window goes away she starts firing all the new weapons in sequence. Maybe some shoulder pad missiles, gatlings on the arms, lasers in the chest. Something with a bit more interaction and control on your part. It probably sounds dumb but this is something I could at least get behind rather than summon doll, doll punch, doll go byebye.

Again this “stagnation” is assuming the base has peaked and is as good as it gets. disregarding infinite variables like potency, MCH in any context has not, comparing it to other DPS, DNC being the sole outlier. Nothing will convince me that it was worthy of remaining 98% identical to it’s SHB incarnation when better jobs that have peaked got more going for it. It’s the lack of care, lack of ambition, lack of seeing what could be.

The fact that you can muster a suggestion, adds to my point of boundless possibility.

Machinery is a endless stream! I’ve said this before but it can go anywhere with this; Augmentation, Devices, Terminals, Cybernetics, Nanomachines, Drones, Pyrotechnics, Equipment, Units, Mechs, Misses, Mines, Electricity, ect. and that’s just the machine part of its soul theirs also for the guns; Ammunition, Explosives, Custom bullets, Barrels, Scopes, Recoil, Trajectory, Shells, Incendiary Rounds, Magazines.

It will always delight me that MCH exist, but I’ll never appreciate it going the route it’s going with it’s incredibly bland approach to the job. And will always frustrate me every expansion when they just heel and remain the same. Looking at SMN, seems like majority of their subs want a show not a game

[Jirah]

SB MCH was at a dead end... Because of how Wildfire used to work.
Every new cooldown they could add would be incorporated into Wildfire combo. Making the combo bigger and complex until you can't weave anything in there.
And at this point, it would be choosing what to cram into wildfire.

For a quick reminder, SB Wildfire was meant to eat all damage, not just GCD to increase its potency.
If I play MCH it's for its visuals and appeals, I don't care about any other DPS or gameplay.

One point about complexity:
Flamethrower and tick fishing is one of the most complex (and annoying) aspect of MCH.
It's not a fun tool to use in AoE or tick fishing case.

Casuals don't use it the optimal way, they don't actually care about the optimal way, yet they are adamant on keeping it.
If a button too complex was to be added, same scenario would occur.

Like how many of you probably experienced the "Healers shouldn't DPS" and any other jobs played wrong.
They don't care about optimizing complex rotations, but they fear its existence.

Ima go and say if WF were to change would SB have a chance to open its wings? And as much as I feel your pain, you seem to always bring up FT. If it were to be fixed to your liking in a patch would SHB be a win-win?

[CKNovel]

Ima go and say if WF were to change would SB have a chance to open its wings? And as much as I feel your pain, you seem to always bring up FT. If it were to be fixed to your liking in a patch would SHB be a win-win?

Let's see... No, sadly there is other changes for ShB rework to be a win. SB MCH would have needed a reworked heat gauge or an overheat button other than FT and a reworked FT to have a chance.

I'm going to change my opinion and say that I would like an ammo gauge back, as a 3rd gauge.
The reason for this change of heart is simple, it looks like SQEX wants to dumb down the gauge, WAR is going to be heavily simplified for example.
On the other hand we got GNB that had its gauge expanded and we had a taste of RPR shroud gauge, it's an ammo gauge+. That ammo gauge should be tied to actions like Hypercharge.
This would heavily ease MCH for everyone.

For me to consider the rework complete, I would rework Flamethrower but Wildfire as well.
MCH new actions don't merge well with old actions and Wildfire is one of them. Make it a heat spender and reduces its cooldown, the current form doesn't fit.
Changing wildfire to a heat spender would also ease MCH for everyone, it would mainly fix the heat loop.

If we imagine those changes to be implemented, plus Shotgun being a new CD and Buzzsaw an independent CD as well, I would consider the rework complete.

In short for me to consider the rework complete:
-Rework Wildfire to a more simple, interesting CD.
-If Wildfire isn't reworked, gives Barrel stabilizer charges to make it more flexible. It's too rigid to fit in the rotation right now.
-Rework Flamethrower to be a tool that you need to care about in the rotation. And delete its horrible "Tick per seconds" behavior.
-Make a new cooldown that revolves around heat (Wildfire being a good candidate)
-Expand hypercharge beyond spamming heatblast.
-Shotgun being a new cooldown that generates heat, giving it charges would allow a better control on the heat.
-Buzzsaw as a new independant, short cooldown.

Queen being a glorified dot could stay but if we get more of her presence on the battlefield overall, I believe it will fix itself.
It would change battery to be a "hold and release around every reassemble" to a real resource to manage. Getting an interaction would be cool as well.

[Jirah]

Are they? That would be nice. I don't see why a ranged class would gain anything by playing in melee range, or how that adds challenge to its gameplay. It really doesn't, it's just annoying and makes you run around without a need, except to land your finish, which should have the same range as your other skills.
RDM has a complete sword combo in melee, but they also have a pair of movement skills to get there and back, whereas en avant is made for a different purpose. It also fits the design and class fantasy of the RDM, while it's just annoying on a phys ranged job.

I don't know, people are picking very weird angles for criticism. Like in that other thread, where someone was unhappy that Scholar got a run speed buff. Like, they literally get something, and that gets criticized. Not like there were no real points that could use some love, no, it has to be a positive addition that gets the heat.

As for Machinist, it works, it flows, it has its place. If you want a busier job, play Bard. Heck, even Dancer is busy. So busy in fact, you sometimes can't use all your procs before they run out.

No disrespect, but you shouldn’t talk about issues that you very clearly don’t know about then disregard them as being “dramatic” Healers have so many threads to read to gain their perspective, or just play a healer in low and high tier content. The fact that you earlier listed somthing they could’ve done to help MCH undermines your whole “Mch is perfect therefore I’m glad it stagnates for another two years” debate, if I were generous enough to could call it that. It’s not easy to see people debate and not get personal with it but it’s also not hard to read a forum or two as your kinda known to say some remedial stuff that the community is actively trying to shed

[Jirah]

snip

I would love to hear more ideas of both Potential revision of SB incarnation and a Revitalize effort of SHB, sadly the community isn’t very...lack of better terms.. aspiring? And are too eager to not change whats perfect to them. I think I’ve seen one rework thread only for it to be ambushed by “don’t change it, it’s fine as is” enough of my petty grudges.

Hmm WF heat spending is already synonymous for what we have, 50 heat is required for it to be utilized anyways. In theory it’s a brilliant way to streamline it but is the execution the same? The process needs a revision as SB was too strict and frigid and SHB is too lateral and careless, despite SB being more significant neither strikes the balance right

As for ammo, I’ve discussed this before (should probably make a new thread about this) but Ammo wasn’t popular due to having no backup skills, it had the most control over rng but was still reviled due to your only options of offense if it wasn’t in your favor was round, will it work before with its old rotation? And how would Hypercharge play a role in it?

Hypercharge spam is starting to gain more infamy to its mediocrity, and both tanks for their spam shtick reduced to 3 but MCH still hasn’t as seen in LL. Aslong as they don’t go full bunchin, or reduce it like a tank I doubt they can make a more boring compromise.

May I suggest a thread to explore these theme further? When put together it may inspire others to what the job can be, or a second head helps clear the fog