RIP MNK 1.x - 5.x

[ssunny2008]

How is it even possible to come to those conclusions if you've played Monk for years? ShB Monk is pretty much the easiest the job has been since ARR and EW finally seems to bring back some complexity at first glance. Masterful Blitz and its interaction with PB & formless shifts looks way more involved than two positionals and OGCDs, especially considering that we'll be generating more chakra which would have made overcapping even more of a pain than it currently is - it'll likely still be a problem in EW but to a much smaller degree.

People seriously need to look at the bigger picture:
- we'll be using PB more than twice as often (that alone already makes up for losing 1 OGCD) and in a complete new and seemingly engaging way, which really can't be said for the DK and LF spam
- more RoF burst windows that will most likely need more planning and careful execution to get the most out of each individual Blitz
- RoW, while not especially exciting, fits thematically and is an added OGCD
- more chakra due to PB and BH changes = more OGCD usage

I mean, being disappointed with some of the changes is fine but it's kinda mind-boggling how many "veteran Monk players" are seriously suggesting that the upcoming changes will make the job easier when everything points to the contrary.

- We´re going to lose 2 positionals and on top we get 3 new GCD´s without positionals too, which means that we play overall way less positionals.
- Burstskills will be more in line with the whole raidparty (60/120) anyway, so there is no really a need to plan their execution more carefully. You only take care for 1 thing: Never let PB sit on 2 stacks! That you want your finishers withing those buff windows seems obvious and shouldn´t be that hard, when you´re actually able to use PB 3-4 times every 120 seconds. Curious that all those timers match together?!
- Spamming chakra when it´s full has never been exciting or challenging.

MNK will be easier to play. Pretty much everything seems to become easier to play since raidbuffs get alined, classes more homogenized and all those movement-cripples out there become some dashes or a raidwide sprint, have to play less positionals, whatever. Even RNG-jesus proccs seems to get nerfed or better said, "are going to be cleaner".

So... just hold everything on cooldown on any class. I´m sure that´s enough to beat savage content in the future. I mean, how can you actually fail with the new MNK? Trying to open 2 dark chakras? Either the internal testers of SE try to play the classes blind with one hand or they do really think, that their community has an average IQ from 50. But hey, given to the hype about more dumbdowns äh QoL-changes and some boaaahhh! - animations, i would think the same.

[Shurrikhan]

If they wanted to address button bloat more decisively AND effectively, elemental fists should have been removed from the game by 3.0 at the latest.

Tbf, we could then make the same case for every intermediate actions, such as every combo skill short of the final, or at least every combo skill without an additional effect worth generating for its own sake.

Bloat isn't a matter of whether something is more than an immediate necessity; it's marked by its providing no unique value, design-wise, in its present context. That always leaves three solutions, however—only one of which is the action's removal. The other two are to adjust the context such that the skill gains that unique opportunity or to adjust the skill such that it actually provides a unique opportunity within its contexts.

Any case one can make for the stance's removals can be mirrored by a case for their being made an actual mechanic. The real problem is merely that neither has happened—outside of perhaps 4.3's iteration, and even it was far from stellar.

[aeoncs]

- We´re going to lose 2 positionals and on top we get 3 new GCD´s without positionals too, which means that we play overall way less positionals.
- Burstskills will be more in line with the whole raidparty (60/120) anyway, so there is no really a need to plan their execution more carefully. You only take care for 1 thing: Never let PB sit on 2 stacks! That you want your finishers withing those buff windows seems obvious and shouldn´t be that hard, when you´re actually able to use PB 3-4 times every 120 seconds. Curious that all those timers match together?!
- Spamming chakra when it´s full has never been exciting or challenging.

MNK will be easier to play. Pretty much everything seems to become easier to play since raidbuffs get alined, classes more homogenized and all those movement-cripples out there become some dashes or a raidwide sprint, have to play less positionals, whatever. Even RNG-jesus proccs seems to get nerfed or better said, "are going to be cleaner".

So... just hold everything on cooldown on any class. I´m sure that´s enough to beat savage content in the future. I mean, how can you actually fail with the new MNK? Trying to open 2 dark chakras? Either the internal testers of SE try to play the classes blind with one hand or they do really think, that their community has an average IQ from 50. But hey, given to the hype about more dumbdowns äh QoL-changes and some boaaahhh! - animations, i would think the same.

- true, so? We're already playing an iteration where positionals are way less important than they were in the past. I'm not happy about losing two positionals but I don't think it's that big of a deal considering the current gameplay, unless they're planning to take it even further in the future
- there absolutely is some individual planning involved. You will have to hold singular stacks of PB as to use them and the following formless shift during an optimal time in your burst window/s and that alone is already more involved than our current burst window
- it's still an OGCD you'll be using more often

No, it most likely won't and that's not even taking level 84-90 traits/skills into account. PB, Masterful Blitz and the following formless shift can be used in numerous ways while our current PB has exactly one right/optimal use and everything else should be avoided. How can you argue that what we've seen in the LL will be less involved / easier than following your basic rotation while weaving a few OGCDs and spamming DK and LF every 90~ seconds?
The new gap closer will see infinitely more skill-based usage than Shoulder Tackle and will literally add to the skill ceiling; absolutely baffling that you can't see this.
Also, are you honestly trying to say that RNG is in any shape or form skill-based?

You have almost always held everything on cooldown on any job since release in 99.9% of all content, the only exception being holding your burst a few seconds for speed kills or progging where you need/want damage peaks. And let's be real, even then the vast majority of raid groups are incapable of doing that in a beneficial way.
How can you actually fail with the current Monk? Even before the soft rework, ShB made losing GL close to impossible and the only mistake you could really make is missing positionals and uptime. The first is way less punishing than screwing up your light/dark chakras, especially in your full burst window where you'll constantly have to weave in FC due to the BH changes, and the second is still always going to be a problem for most players.

I'd advise you to watch some videos or read up on theorycrafting from Monk players who really know what they're talking about - Student Loans or the most known theorycrafters from the balance discord come to mind. If they can't change your mind, maybe at least wait for the Media Tour / until you have seen the entirety of the kit instead of ranting prematurely.

[ssunny2008]

snip

You answered it yourself in some way in my eyes. Calling it "optimal".

- With the lined up burst skills on any classes, you probably won´t even think much about "delay or not". Same with divers RNG proccs on several classes, when they´re going to be made 100% proccs. You don´t save something for 2 seconds or so, when it´s going to be ready in the burst phases for sure. Decision-making won´t be a thing.
- To hold 1 PB back for maybe that 90s skill or to use it in the 60s RoF window doesn´t mix things up tbh.
- Shoulder tackle seems to be nothing to talk about, the change is a good one. But in the end, you don´t have to make the decision "Do i use it in my burst phase or should i prepare for incoming uptime-issues?"
- Having FS in the end if PB gives us the advantage to optimize our gameplay yes. But in this way, it´s getting easier to react to whatever is happening / to optimize the gameplay.
- Don´t know for sure how blitz is gonna work in the end, atleast which skill will give us which symbol. But there we´re able to adjust to given circumstances too.

I´m not saying the current MNK is hard, if anything, it´s braindead next to get used to positionals at different mechanics. But with the loss of 2 positionals, the more lined up buffs and some QoL changes, MNK is getting easier for sure. You might see that it caters optimal gameplay and skill ceiling, i see less positional effected gameplay, less uptime issues and decision-making. The rest is just a new rotation i´ll get used to and in the worst case, it´ll feel a bit clunky without the 2 positionals and the finisher animations.