Changes to Ninja I'd like people's thoughts on

[Gemina]

1. While true, abilities like Mug and Trick attack are signature abilities for iconic jobs like Thief and Ninja.

2. Ranged combos would feel awkward. Even for NIN, which could possibly pull that off. Multiple debuffs is what the devs have moved away from for this job, and for good reason as it is already quite busy. While debilitating abilities are known to be part of pop culture ninja toolkits, these toolkits are so vast that it just isn't possible to give it all to one job in an mmo, so you have to pick and choose. They have really gone full blown Naruto with NIN in FFXIV, and will likely continue to go in this direction in the future as well.

3. You can Shukuchi behind an opponent and mug them if you wish. Mug in the FF world is typically an upgrade to 'Steal' for Thief and/or Ninja, and adds damage while also nabbing an item. IOW, it's a direct assault, and not sneaky. As for throwing dagger. I also rarely use it. I usually have ninjitsu available when forced out and have to cast mudras while on the run anyway. When I am forced into a situation that I have to use throwing dagger, I usually feel like I messed up somewhere, or I need to learn the timing of the fight more to prevent it.

In contradiction to this, what I feel NIN needs is to not get entirely screwed if forced to move out of TCJ. It's not totally contradictive though as there are times where the NIN is not at fault for having to drop TCJ, so I would rather they not get punished for another player's mistake when it comes to this. I think it would be pretty cool if Shukuchi resets upon use of TCJ, and using it during TCJ will not break it.

[Equitable_Remedy]

*Edit* Never mind, I just read an overview of the LL!

[Realism_Snide]

1) I'm gonna quote you in point #2 to explain the name change: "Trick Attack already gives essentially a defense down to your target for 15s."

In other words . . . it crushes armor. Why not call it "Armor Crush"?

Because your giving your enemy a surprise stab in the back while they are busying themselves with the tank. On the flip side, why call Armor Crush "Trick Attack" when there is nothing sneaky or tricky about it? Either way, I'm not changing the names.

2) The long-range part was optional, but what you're essentially admitting is that throwing daggers is useless. Personally, I like to keep my distance during enemy AOE spams. Secondly, I like chances. They feel better to me than an oGCD with a 60s CD. Thirdly, the changes to trick attack were POST-name change. So no, I wasn't adding blindness to trick attack in addition to the damage debuff. They remain on two different abilities. I was adding blindness onto armor crush(pre-name change).

Are you blind? I just explained to you how useful Throwing Daggers are. But I guess you prefer doing nothing while you're away from the boss and have no mudras instead of doing some damage and getting some ninki out of it. So the changes are to Armor Crush, an ability that does decent damage and that refreshes Huton. And now you want to add blindness to it on top of that?

Keep in mind, Yoshi-P just announced that they got rid of shadowfang altogether.

I know. RIP Shadowfang :,(. It will be missed.

3) Well I see no real reason to use mug then. The animation would have been as quick as shukuchi. And armor crush(without the name change) competes with aeolian slash.

Mug gives you 40 ninki, which is then used on either Bhavakackra (high damage single target), Hellfrog (Ranged aoe damage), or Bunshin (doubles your weaponskill attacks and ninki gain from those skills for 5 uses). I agree that mug is useless below lvl 60 (as does most of NIN's kit, sadly, especially below 50), but you will see it does become useful later. Shukuchi isn't as fast as you think it is. It would still be an animation lock as long as Assassinate's animation lock. I still don't see how those 2 compete? You need 1 to refresh Huton, and you need the other for the damage.

So now shadowfang is gone, throwing daggers are useless, mug is useless, and armor crush renders aeolian slash useless. Ninja's non-mudra actions remain boring, repetitive and lacking in utility. Would you rather fill your hotbar with useless abilities, or abilities with proc-potential that combo?

I'd rather fill my hotbar with these useful abilities that you call useless than with abilities that have a low chance of being useful and a ranged combo we don't need.

[Realism_Snide]

I do agree with you that NIN could be more fun. Just not with those changes. If they brought back some of our utility that we used to have (like Jugulate, which silences our foe, or our aggro management tools, or even our own unique attack down ability to help mitigate strong aoes), but keep the current mudra system, I would find it even more fun and satisfying.

[Crimson1345]

I honestly don't see why there getting rid of Shadow Fang makes no sense its a decent ability in its own right. Its not gone yet and If we complain enough SE might go back on it. No reason to remove said ability, There are other useless skills out there that can be replaced. IF SE devs see this reconsider this do not remove our skill. I use it in rotations all the time.. Shadow Fang is gurented 10 no matter and creates that nice effect on the enemies. I rather have shadow fang. Its just odd there removing it for no real reason. Ninja is losing its utility that's not good SE serously . I agree Throwing daggers not as useful as some other skills. We can use mudra for range attacks regardless. If enough of us Complain SE can change there minds on removing this one skill and get rid of some other skill honestly we might not need. ITs not set in stone as it said. Still in development. Example one Feint was removed at one time and come back as a role skill it got reworked. Feint in 1.0 was way different then what we have now for example. I see no reason to remove shadow fang.