Homogenization and Simplicity in Tank Roles

[Mindiori]

The majority do indeed dictate. Casual, as I have noted before was phrased into 'people who can't be bothered'. Instead of the once familiar 'less time to play'. Yoshi echoes it with, ''we expect people to take breaks''. Certainly on the surface they can wrangle reasons why this is all fine. Yet as you correctly assert above, it is the motive/reason for their doing so that is the problem.

To have a world, such as it is a 'mini one that imitates in many ways larger systems'; dictated by the whims of those too lazy for the most primitive things - of course its a disaster.

In a very real sense, anyone who joins/partakes in virtually anything in this life - often looks for inspiration/motivation or reason to bother. Something often found in the veterans. By nature, they are always fewer in number.

In the past, looking up to people who had invested/achieved and completed things; was fine. It makes logical sense. Then the greed and self-entitlement set in. ''Why shouldn't I be instantly inline with people who have been doing this years?'' ''It shouldn't be a job'' ''I pay my sub''.

Yes you do. However you don't pay for the right to destroy a shared environment and undermine its value. Because they pay as well.

This modern mindset, is akin to a mental illness. It pays no mind to good virtues and fosters little but negative ones. Accepting things take time, is a part of their inherent worth. That has been gutted. Making things trivial. Skippable. Makes you question the point of long term mentor systems, or grind at all. Not in the sense that anyone should like those things. Rather that they only existed in the past because of peoples acceptance of certain negatives to generate pacing and investment. Scope in time played. There should be a difference between a person who has just begun and one who hasn't. Yet they are forced to fight it - because people can't accept any effort.

Laziness is a blight. Seemingly now something they consider built in. Some casuals once said to me, 'I don't want to play 24/7'. Fair enough I thought. Yet ask them why. ''Well I have a lot of other things to do. Things that demand time and dedication'.

Ah. So you accept that something of worth requires that. Yet want to render upon a game worthlessness. So that you can 'fit it in'. That is not how things should work. Imagine in real life, you worked 3 years for a degree. The guy next to you laughs. ''should have bought the skip pot mate'.

Yes. This is a game. However because people are involved many philosophical principles align with it all the same. Nobody would bother with a skilled hobby if after years of dedication they were at the same level as a day 1 beginner. Because of their investment value.

If people are too stupid to understand why dumbing down a game, results in similar - conversation is ultimately pointless.

[FoxCh40s]

I've been tanking for 3 years and I can't do it anymore. The live letter killed any hopes I had of a bit more identity and complexity to the role and I'd rather be in long queue times then play this boring hollow shell of a role. I will not heal either as this face roll design for tanks attracted a lot of "interesting" folks to the role and every run is nothing but a painful chore of carrying. It's a double edge sword for devs because they want to minimize the tank shortage but they're doing this at the expense of everyone else.

The good tank players quit the role because it's too boring and dry and the influx of new tanks make the content much harder then it needs to be. As I've been leveling my SAM this week I have never wiped so many times in 70 to 80 dungeons in my life. Long story short I would rather the skill ceiling for tanks be much higher (which results in fewer players) and wait longer then get the wipe fest that is current tanks. Dumbing down anything is never a good way to go and the result is making mediocrity the standard.

Healers have been saying this for years. I will repeat my sentiments as I have over there.

Square Enix does not care. THEY. DO. NOT. CARE.

[RinaB]

They should care as the more you dumb down important roles the more you need to dumb down content difficulty and then eventually all aspects of the game. Mmos are kind of expected to have tank and healer shortages because only a few dedicated people play the roles or at least try to. These roles are supposed to be played by the people who enjoy them which in turn usually means they're also good at them. Making heals and tanks boring and easy mode may help groups form faster but what kind of group are you getting? "It's just Malikas well bro". Exactly bro, why are we wiping and struggling? Go play something else. I am now and it's fine, but I can't help but think of how many tanks like me have laid down their weapon and changed their armor when I see the new "tanks".

[Shin96]

All of this simply is the result of FFXIV being the only viable MMO at the market right now.

There's nothing intrinsically valuable about a player that cannot pull their own weight. The reason for all of this is precisely because the demographics aren't evenly divided as they should be. Casuals, up to midcore- and hardcore should never be treated the same way. What you end up with is a war of interests and conflicts because of envy for achievements, popularity, or any other specific reason someone might dislike you. Heck, even a mentor crown is enough for someone to stigmatize you.

It is for this reason there's so much hate against mentors and savage raiders recently - from by observation. Typical lines include: "Well, they don't deserve a sliver of content! They are toxic!" If they deserve nothing, you are deserving of even less, given the absolute lack of any effort from your side. This is why you cannot reason with them, because their insecurities are born from envy and ignorance; what they cannot understand, they simply shall get rid off to minimize discomfort or the source thereof.

Which eerily reminds me of a real world political ideology becoming more relevant again. It's bleeding into the gaming industry as well, I'm sure you guessed which.

Anyhow, I digress. Square Enix does not care because they are a company. I cannot recall or think of any company that hasn't ended up screwing their customers over in some way, at least. Think of Cyberpunk 2077 and CD Project Red, even with a good track record they just shat out a game borderline criminally and people simply accepted it, because.. why not?

[Mindiori]

As we say, we know who and we know why.

I thank the stars the real world doesn't offer a skip pot - but even then, we know that the scroungers would rather get a hand out than bother. All of the envy in the world; yet they would reduce it to babies level so they can obtain it without work or investment. Crippling it entirely.

I certainly think someone knows precisely what they are doing here in all these areas. Which is why I implore people to hold their ground - popular or not. Worth is worth. You can't subjectify everything to suit a narrative. Even if 'most' people prefer a one button cruise; the equality they espouse should extend beyond the opposite number. Those being given that oh so generous 1% As per your implication; their distaste or even hate for those who disagree is very similar to a emergent world view. This is a game of people. Of course it is leaking into it.

Has anyone even paused to reflect on the hilarity of the concept; 'nobody wants challenge or things that take work'. Because in a very practical way that becomes 'Nobody cares that its meaningless. Enjoy'. The very antithesis to purpose, or long term investment in ...anything at all.

The level of stupidity beggars belief. On deaf ears though. I recommend finding a discipline that rewards hard work, has a progressive learning curve. And one where long term investors are respected for that much. Not condemned as some sort of laughing stock, for the crime of 'being concerned'.

[Lyth]

Soapbox aside, I think that FFXIV does a good job of offering something for everyone. The core game features and story are very accessible without requiring a time commitment. At the same time, there are plenty of exclusive rewards for clearing niche content. There is no lack of challenges, especially if you're into achievement hunting. Most of the people who are bored with the game just aren't looking for new challenges, or else we'd see more Necromancers riding around on Morbols.

I think that a lot of the complaints about one combo jobs and one button burst windows are coming from people only using one neuron to post. You don't need 32 different keybinds to have intricate gameplay. MOBAs and FPS games are proof of this. FPS games are especially bad, all you have to do is one button spam your left click, how easy is that? What makes these genres more complex than your standard MMO are the fact that factors like movement, anticipation, and aim are key determinants of skill. Yet throw in anything remotely resembling a skillshot into FFXIV and you'll see players complain about it being too cumbersome.

Actually, anyone who has played a tank in other MMOs could probably tell you that the factor limiting tanks right now is fight design. If you have tanks actually moving bosses around the map, the role becomes exponentially more interesting. The problem is that there is a lot of 1.0 movement jank that's buried under the flowery fight choreography that we see, and until they fix that, tanks aren't really getting the chance to be tanks.

If I had to pick a second issue, it would be the fact that invulns remove the need for you to understand how much damage you actually receive for any given damage spike. As long as invulns exist, mitigation is just a glorified quicktime event. If you just fix those two things alone, you'd dramatically change tank engagement overnight. I'm really just waiting to see whether Endwalker is capable of addressing these two points.

Outside of those gameplay elements, tank gameplay is essentially identical to playing a melee dps, and it's worth remembering that there actually are some pretty interesting melee dps out there now. Reaper even has TBN.

[Shin96]

Most of the people who are bored with the game just aren't looking for new challenges, or else we'd see more Necromancers riding around on Morbols.

I don't see how that has anything to do with job and role design though. Those are cherry-picked challenges, and the reason I haven't done them is because I'm simply not interested. 90% of the content you run all aside is suffering from the lack of poor reward structure and complacency with skill stagnation, as I have illustrated some posts before.

I think that a lot of the complaints about one combo jobs and one button burst windows are coming from people only using one neuron to post.

I think you like to forget the fact not everyone is named Lyth. Thank god you're not designing jobs, I already despise pressing 1-2-3 ad nauseam. As for the burst window, I like to think the designers aren't particularly skilled at coming up with anything else. Otherwise they would find more interesting ways for gameplay loops. Or maybe this is purely intentional given how bad the majority of players are in this game. If that's the case they are absolute geniuses.

Speak less from a point of authority and more adressing the actual issue which is the playerbase itself. You mentioned MOBA's and FPS games, but these are highly competitive in their self-contained nature, it makes sense to reduce the player input regarding buttons to press considering you are under perpetual stress of situational awareness and reflex. As this is not the case for FFXIV, the only framework to expand upon are actions and the jobs themselves. Why? Because there's a lack in all of the things I mentioned.

As for movement and all the other wonderful things we would like to have, it's never going to happen. Some people already miss pressing sprint on their hotbar, let alone go into a fight without any prior engagements or knowledge. And you expect it will go well? The reason we can't have nice things is because they are on a crusade to dumb this game down in every possible way. Your solution is a good start, but realistically speaking it's just as likely to happen as the return of the enmity system.

[KageTokage]

I'd like to hope incoming damage is going to get higher in EW because both tanks and healers seem to be getting significant buffs to their healing/mitigations and the overall gameplay for both is going to feel even more stale otherwise.

[Lyth]

...

I was really struggling to see how the seven or so posts in this thread prior to mine were
1) relevant to this thread
2) relevant to tanking and role design

So let me paraphrase. I do understand that everyone here has completed every 'worthwhile' challenge at the game and is distraught at how the more 'casual' playerbase is holding them back, but if we're done with the self-aggrandizement, it would be nice to get the thread back on track. Insert tactful segue here. Better now?

MMO games, as a genre, are mechanically very simple to begin with. There is no rotation that you can design which isn't going to become second nature to play after a month of focused playtime. That's exacerbated by the fact that this playerbase in particular bellyaches endlessly at any hint of randomness or variability. Oh, no procs please. Oh, no Critical Hit randomness please. Oh, no variable resource gains please. It'll mess up my perfect run. Because the rotation never changes, and because the fights never change, everything you ever do is a thinly disguised '1-2-3'. There is little difference between pressing 1-1-1-1-1 at fixed intervals and pressing 1-4-2-4-3-4, yet people fixate and obsess over this stuff.

Granted, the devs are getting more creative in using keyboard/controller real estate, using contextual keybinds that swap in and out as you need. This way you can have the illusion of varied keypresses without having a bunch of situational combo buttons that only get used once every 60 seconds. GNB and RPR did this fairly well, and you'll probably see more and more jobs doing this over the next few expansions or so. You're still essentially pressing 1-1-1 or 1-2-3, but at least you get different animations to keep you entertained. I still see this as fluff, but if it keeps people happy, I'm fine with that.

The core gameplay experience is that you fight a boss in a circular arena, you stay on the boss and adds without losing GCDs to mechanics. The focus should be on making that experience more engaging and varied. The rotation buttons that you press are fluff. It doesn't matter if you're typing out the lyrics to 'Mary had a little Lamb'. The button presses barely change from fight to fight. That's why adding a single new movement skill impacts job design far more than adding in three new happy meal combos that you can brag about to your friends.

The reason why a lot of other genres cut down on the number of keybinds while doubling down on the movement and mechanical game play is because it not only boosts the skill cap but is also visually a lot easier for streaming audiences to follow. RTS games go much more heavy down the keybind route and while it's mildly entertaining to watch the spectacle of the players' keyboard useage, most viewers can't decipher the flow of action. It really has nothing to do with pressing more buttons being more stressful.

I think we're already seeing a fairly large shift towards experimenting with more types of movement abilities this coming expansion. Players really enjoy using them, and the dev team is starting to recognize that. And you'll definitely see more of a skill differential between players that use these well and players that don't.

We're focusing on the wrong things. New action fluff sells expansions, but that isn't what's going to determine whether they stay interesting. If you want to address the many complaints about tanking and healing, you really have to look closely at fight design. And until more of us start talking about that, the dev team is just going to continue to focus in the wrong direction.

[Ryahask]

The ongoing saga of Tank & Healer job design in FFXIV has been homogenization and simplification since Heavensward. Largely, every additive change that improves the gameplay and depth of a role is paired with at least one reductive change that degrades the current state of the role. The reality is that post-Heavensward, both new expansions heavily homogenized the tank jobs and heavily simplified existing mechanics. However, I feel it is worth highlighting is that it's not particularly relevant to defend or bemoan the loss of specific systems. I loved stance dancing and aggro-management for tanks, but you may have hated it. What matters is that every time a substantial system or gameplay hook for Tank jobs has been removed, it has not been replaced. This means that tanks in modern FFXIV simply have less skill expression than they ever have in the past.

The underlying combat and content design of FFXIV is a significant driving factor in the continual erosion of tank design. In addition, it feels quite clear that the developers have deliberately homogenized and simplified the tank role, which means that unfortunately, we are unlikely to see any improvement in the future. A small part of me hoped that Endwalker would see a massive tank overhaul that would begin to reinvigorate the role, but I should have known better and the live letter all but confirmed their intentions to be the opposite.

Obviously, I cannot speak on behalf of the entire player base, but the constant erosion of tank design has definitely impacted a subset of the community. My retention rate in each expansion since Heavensward has continuously been lessening as I simply don't enjoy playing my chosen role anymore. The jobs are far too mindless, similar, and devoid of the player expression that makes them enjoyable. To be honest, with how Endwalker is shaping up if not for many close friends playing the expansion - I might not this time around. I do not have high hopes for the expansion, because the content can be amazing, but to retain interest beyond the initial playthrough requires that the gameplay be amazing as well - and I have no confidence left in the developers' ability to craft satisfying tank gameplay.