Homogenization and Simplicity in Tank Roles

[Lyth]

There's a perception amongst FFXIV players that action/talent tree design doesn't ever work because there is always a meta pick. That's actually false.

There's a clear cut meta pick only if you can directly compare actions to each other. For example, if you were choosing between Shadow Wall and Vengeance as defensive options on an action tree, you can say that Vengeance is a better action because it has an offensive buff that the other doesn't. But what if you were comparing Shukuchi, En Avant, and the new Hell's Egress/Ingress (RPR) as movement abilities? That's a bit more difficult of a comparison to make, and player preference may start to enter the picture. In some cases, you may have choices between a marginally mathematically better option when executed perfectly and a simpler option that is much more forgiving. You still see a lot of variation in player choice when you lay out these types of options.

You only run into problems when your choices are partially homogenized, because you can do a direct comparison and a clear winner emerges. If choices are completely homogenized, then you have balance but it's boring. If you can't form a proper comparison between the choices at all, then you also have balance, but you also have variety. People are always afraid to try new things, but I really think it would be worth a trial of a simple action/talent tree to see if it works in this game.

Also, as an aside, your priorities during progression are completely different from farm. When nobody knows a fight or how mechanics works, players play a lot more defensively, because your goal is to see more of the fight to gather more data about it. So I wouldn't generalize across the two.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Right?, and correct. In-class Diversity and game design styles like skill trees can work very well... I never attempt to argue about it, though...
People will believe what they want to believe, and any game that I have ever been to play, that had In-Class diversity in their classes(and/or subclasses), also had superior game design in combat systems and classes design, than the not so good or straight just bad design that FFXIV has; so it is fair to doubt that In-Class diversity would function in FFXIV, because even I doubt that it would function.

To be honest, I very much hate the "Holy Trinity", the Damager-Healer-Tank Trifecta... A combat system that encourages homogenization, which is also sort of the Antithesis of(the case of how the FFXIV "jobs" are extra rigid makes this worse), the superior game design of In-Class Diversity and styles like skill trees, so FFXIV would have to change and upgrade its awful combat systems from the roots, I think...

I hate to love FFXIV to the point that I care a lot about the game, and want to see it improve, but I also hold no hope towards if that will ever happen...

Even though I hate both, homogenization and simplicity seem to be the play of the game, so I do not see that either of these things would lessen, let alone stop... I can think of ways to change FFXIV, to make the game more varied, diverse, complex, and more of a challenge, but my thoughts have no worth to the powers that be, and hold no weight...

[Tarrick]

To be honest, I very much hate the "Holy Trinity", the Damager-Healer-Tank Trifecta... A combat system that encourages homogenization, which is also sort of the Antithesis of(the case of how the FFXIV "jobs" are extra rigid makes this worse), the superior game design of In-Class Diversity and styles like skill trees, so FFXIV would have to change and upgrade its awful combat systems from the roots, I think...

Game designers didn't just make up the "holy trinity" style and force it on everyone. It came out of the long iteration of multiplayer strategy games from tabletop, to BBS, to MUDs, to MMOs where players naturally progress into this sort of specialization. Human beings quickly identify that the most effective means of accomplishing a goal is generally through specialization (this is why min-maxing is a thing), so you would have to specifically design a game to prevent that sort of thing if you want to avoid it. However, that often leads to a different sort of homogenization where everyone is capable of DPS but also must have some defensive capabilities and self-healing at which point every class is mechanically similar with different flairs. At that point, a party is just a group of similar individuals rather than a group of players each coordinating different strengths.

[FoxCh40s]

I love how Tank Mains are arguing about homogenization, when you guys don't even know TRUE Homogenization. You guys argue over how boring tanking us getting, and then come into the Healer forums and tell us everything is fine.

So guess what? It's fine. All the tanks are perfectly fine and don't need more complexity.

Feel triggered?

Point made.

[Aword3213]

To be honest, I very much hate the "Holy Trinity", the Damager-Healer-Tank Trifecta... A combat system that encourages homogenization, which is also sort of the Antithesis of(the case of how the FFXIV "jobs" are extra rigid makes this worse), the superior game design of In-Class Diversity and styles like skill trees, so FFXIV would have to change and upgrade its awful combat systems from the roots, I think...

Why do you even play FFXIV to begin with....? I'm not defending this game, but it seems to me that FFXIV as a genre and its core design are against your preference. Maybe you should just try a different game? I say this because I think the Holy Trinity thing will stay no matter how the game is improved.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Why do you even play FFXIV to begin with....? I'm not defending this game, but it seems to me that FFXIV as a genre and its core design are against your preference. Maybe you should just try a different game? I say this because I think the Holy Trinity thing will stay no matter how the game is improved.

It surprises me a little that a person would even bother to ask... That is a long story that does not belong in a place like this.

That said, you are correct, though... The Genre itself(a mere action game), and the general fundamental design of FFXIV, are both either not a match to.. or against my preference, yeh. And I do play other games a lot... I just continue to return to FFXIV, every time that I leave it, as I am not able to leave one final time, nor able to make the decision to not return...
Alas.. as I just did type, my story does not belong told here in this place, so I will refrain from that temptation.

On thread topic, what ever the cause or where ever whence it comes, myself and many others, both people here and not here, hate the slow progression of further homogenization and simplicity that steadily afflicts FFXIV. I am here like any other to share my opinion/s about it, and complain about a thing that we all hate... personal reasons or history with the game does not matter much.
I admit that in this particular case, I can not quite offer suggestions all that well, to deal with the as yet to still grow issue of homogenization and simplicity, but I can at least express that I feel similar to many others, to throw even a little more weight onto what ever scale may or may not collect all of these complaints, and weigh their worth.

[VictoriaLuv]

I think all tanks needs few balance changes that can really be fixed with a few small patches here and there. I feel squires-enix's direction isn't a negative. i mean rewarding upgraded version defensive cool-downs when using them at right time is great time making defensive cd's less boring and more active. . able to use ranged attacks without breaking combo's