Homogenization and Simplicity in Tank Roles

[Shin96]

All in the name of 'I can't handle a few buttons' so I'll moan like a baby.

This is becoming increasignly relevant over the years. There is one group of people that really struggle with button bloat, but I also see a fair amount of people whining about it for the most trivial of reasons.

Just make tanks unique. I seriously doubt a DPS player will pick tank no matter how promising it looks. It will only divide two mentalities of players and leave one frustrated while the other one is being catered to on a grander scale. I wish things could be perfect but we live in an imperfect world. It's much better to support those that are willing to learn instead of stagnate.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

This is becoming increasignly relevant over the years. There is one group of people that really struggle with button bloat, but I also see a fair amount of people whining about it for the most trivial of reasons.

(controversial hot-take warning) "Button Bloat" is a myth and it is not real, while the real problem is just bad job action design... The answer to solve the "button bloat" problem, is to solve the actual problem that causes it, and the answer to solve that issue is right there at the top in my signature...

Create in-"job" diversity, and cull the one-way only rigidity.

Take Blue Mage and its 104 actions... Why are 104 actions never complained about as "Button Bloat"? Because a mockery of in-class diversity exists for that "job". there are 104 actions, but the player only ever uses their choice of any 24 of them, so no there is no "Button Bloat", just the illusion of options.

The other 19 "jobs" in FFXIV need to be similar to this... If we count all deleted action ever removed from the game, the other "jobs" only have 30-60 actions, but if they had a mockery of in-class diversity like Blue Mage...Say.. a Limit of any where from 28-36 actions, then just pick 28 actions and do not attempt to use all 30 to 60 actions...
Still want to complain about "Button Bloat", any way? No person every said that any person is forced to use up to the limit. 28 actions too much for you? You only want 24? then pick 24 actions and only use 24 actions.

I doubt that FFXIV will ever see in-"job" diversity, but I believe that it would dispel the "Button Bloat" myth, if it was made a thing... There is no real limit, only the limitation that a person puts on to their self. button bloat is a self-made limitation, not a real limit.

Also, my apologies.. for this goes off of the thread's topic, I realize.

[Mikey_R]

The other 19 "jobs" in FFXIV need to be similar to this... If we count all deleted action ever removed from the game, the other "jobs" only have 30-60 actions, but if they had a mockery of in-class diversity like Blue Mage...Say.. a Limit of any where from 28-36 actions, then just pick 28 actions and do not attempt to use all 30 to 60 actions...
Still want to complain about "Button Bloat", any way? No person every said that any person is forced to use up to the limit. 28 actions too much for you? You only want 24? then pick 24 actions and only use 24 actions.

At that point, the community with find out the best 28 abilities you should use, and anyone not using those would be forced out of endgame. Then you have the issue of, You didn't bring any AoE, but you now need it for this raid fight, you are screwed. Infact, you would end up with different sets based on what you are going to be playing, a dungeon set, a trail/normal raid set, a savage+ set etc. It would just be a pain to switch between them.

You can say, well, restrict what they can have. Ensure they have some form of AoE, make sure they have at least X amount of mitigation etc. At some point you have to think, we are basically funneling them into this specific direction anyway, might as well just give them everything they need and balance that.

Blue Mage works because it is designed to be flexible between Tank/Healer/DPS, even then though, there are specific spells that you will find the vast majority of BLU uses. Even ignoring that, alot of BLU spells are just copy and paste of each other, just with a different element.

And only picking 24/28 you could have, you just nerfed yourself for no reason.

The way they do it now is the best way to do it to maintain balance and also to keep the ease of balancing.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

At that point, the community with find out the best 28 abilities you should use, and anyone not using those would be forced out of endgame. Then you have the issue of, You didn't bring any AoE, but you now need it for this raid fight, you are screwed. Infact, you would end up with different sets based on what you are going to be playing, a dungeon set, a trail/normal raid set, a savage+ set etc. It would just be a pain to switch between them.

You can say, well, restrict what they can have. Ensure they have some form of AoE, make sure they have at least X amount of mitigation etc. At some point you have to think, we are basically funneling them into this specific direction anyway, might as well just give them everything they need and balance that.

Blue Mage works because it is designed to be flexible between Tank/Healer/DPS, even then though, there are specific spells that you will find the vast majority of BLU uses. Even ignoring that, alot of BLU spells are just copy and paste of each other, just with a different element.

And only picking 24/28 you could have, you just nerfed yourself for no reason.

The way they do it now is the best way to do it to maintain balance and also to keep the ease of balancing.

That is why I did refer to it as a mockery of In-Class Diversity and just a Illusion of choice... There would be various problems with it, some of which you even did not mention, due to FFXIV's combat design is so bad and weird, to the point that the "jobs" need to have their design made to function with how bad combat design is, then to the point of restriction and limitation...
That is why I only did claim that it may dispel the myth of Button Bloat, since "Button Bloat" is in one part: "too many actions to use all actions, so get rid of the less use-full actions". That even gets into one of the problems that you did not mention, if we add the need to balance to the mix... Every action that the players deem "inferior, so ignore it", would have to receive improvement, to be on par with the actions given favour, to the point that, as like with Blue Mage, some actions are just copy and paste, with little real difference.

Back on thread topic... I think that in order to eliminate some of the homogenization of Tanks, and further to all "jobs", the Dev Team will have to complete redesign and improve FFXIV's awful trash combat systems... some parts of Homogenization have the cause as this issue, some of it does not, but it would be the place to start. My obsession with In-Class diversity only functions as a end-point, not a place to start...

Two other causes of Homogenization in Tanks... One would be Role Actions, and I have even seen, and agree with, the people that want some of these removed, and to replace certain role actions with.. although not unique actions in their function, at least unique actions in their animation; to give a nice illusion of to be even just a little less homogenization.

The other is a problem that affects more than just the Tanks...
similar to the severe design flaws of the combat systems, we also have the severe design flaw of "only DPS matters and DPS is more important than aught else." For less homogenization, especially for Tanks and Healers, this design flaw needs to be dealt with... Tanks need to be made to worry about defensive combat design more. give Tanks a reason to be Blue DPS less, and a bit less homogenization through that, by to have four different means of defensive reactions, that the Tanks need to use more than just as a reaction to simple combat patterns that get blown off with simple defensive reactions.

Also, to be honest, my earlier post was actually just a impulse post, because the button bloat thing annoys me a lot... >.>;

[Mezzoforte]

(controversial hot-take warning) "Button Bloat" is a myth and it is not real, while the real problem is just bad job action design... The answer to solve the "button bloat" problem, is to solve the actual problem that causes it, and the answer to solve that issue is right there at the top in my signature...

Create in-"job" diversity, and cull the one-way only rigidity.

Take Blue Mage and its 104 actions... Why are 104 actions never complained about as "Button Bloat"? Because a mockery of in-class diversity exists for that "job". there are 104 actions, but the player only ever uses their choice of any 24 of them, so no there is no "Button Bloat", just the illusion of options.

The other 19 "jobs" in FFXIV need to be similar to this... If we count all deleted action ever removed from the game, the other "jobs" only have 30-60 actions, but if they had a mockery of in-class diversity like Blue Mage...Say.. a Limit of any where from 28-36 actions, then just pick 28 actions and do not attempt to use all 30 to 60 actions...
Still want to complain about "Button Bloat", any way? No person every said that any person is forced to use up to the limit. 28 actions too much for you? You only want 24? then pick 24 actions and only use 24 actions.

I doubt that FFXIV will ever see in-"job" diversity, but I believe that it would dispel the "Button Bloat" myth, if it was made a thing... There is no real limit, only the limitation that a person puts on to their self. button bloat is a self-made limitation, not a real limit.

Also, my apologies.. for this goes off of the thread's topic, I realize.

This sort of design ends up not working. Everything gets culled down to a optimized META setup and you will be kicked every single time someone sees you running one non-optimal skill. This also makes balance turn into World of Warcraft balance because they have a simpler version of what you are saying and they have inordinate amounts of problems stemming from it so much it is killing their game. You legit have classes that, for upwards of 7 years now, are unplayable in endgame content PvE and PvP.
Button Bloat is a legit issue but it isn't coming from where you think it is. It is coming from having redundant skills. An example is Red Mages melee combo. It has 3 buttons. These 3 buttons are never used in any circumstance, for any reason, except for going 1-2-3 while enchanted to start their finishers. There is no reason this should be more than a single button that changes as it goes through the combo. VerFire and VerStone, these buttons should overlap VerThunder and VerAero when Dualcast isnt up. So far we have saved 4 buttons. A lot of melee and some tanks have this issue too. Also, take into account controller players do have limited space for keys.

What they should do is cull redundant buttons into changing packs of buttons then add more unique and flavorful skills with those extra buttons.

[Mindiori]

This is becoming increasignly relevant over the years. There is one group of people that really struggle with button bloat, but I also see a fair amount of people whining about it for the most trivial of reasons.

Yes and for the better part, it has admittedly resulted in what has become a rather snarky hang up for me in gaming in general. If there is 'hyperbole', as is their favorite argument - I find it to be in the idea that they really care about any perspective other than their own. As long as the game is about as challenging as a trip to the bathroom - they consider it all good. Nothing to really learn, or aspire to.

What they miss; is that often those long term veterans are not blind to the idea of bloat as you mention. Nor are they intending to be openly hostile. Rather, they seek some sense of reward in play. Something to aspire to. Rather than it being pick it up and spam one button - ad nauseam.

MMO developers seem to no longer care about long term community in regard to job depth - which I find odd. As MMO's have always fostered that sense of long term community.

Imagine if you started at level 1. And saw no real change until 80. Boring yes? Heh. Thats why the skip pot exists. They aren't ignorant of their decisions. And its a shame, because there was a time when jobs were just deep enough, to offer a little something for everyone. It certainly still needed work over time. Jobs then came that were more accessible. Easier to play. And the demand unsurprisingly became 'We want them all simplified'.

And now look at the state of them. I understand some struggle with buttons. I am used to x2 the amount and find it manageable; but I don't demand change. Rather, I expected compromise and received none. If there is any challenge now it is in arbitrary time demands and people bothering at all. A cat on a keyboard could carry out most of whats required now. Disappointing for those who value challenge. But of course in their 'equality' world - only they are equal yes? Sigh. I shall cease ranting. I apologize. However I dislike the intellectual dishonesty of those championing accessibility.

It is dumbing down for the masses. Thats all it is.

[FoxCh40s]

I see more naivety in your words than I do in CBU3's tank designs. Those that complain about Homogeneity tend not to understand that it takes a lot of effort, knowledge and skill to get to the point where you admit that being unique is not necessarily good nor viable and more likely than not to create far more problems than it is worth.

The Homogeneity in mitigation capabilities actually allows for them to be more creative in Fight design while still allowing all the tanks to be viable. Homogeneity in tank damage patterns prevents fights from breaking due to one tank being able to kill an add faster than intended.

I've never understood why all Jobs need to be viable in all fights, when the main feature of the game is anyone can be anything. People will always take the path of least resistance, and even now they're are metals despite the homogenization. So what effectively, did they actually really and truly achieve across the board except make all of the original players mad, and drastically lower the skill ceiling?

[Mikey_R]

Because SE wants every fight to be cleared by everyone and not have any jobs be shut out just because the fight hates them.

Yes, there is a META, there will always be a META, however, as it stands, it is completely irrelevant. The gap between the 'META' and 'non-META' comps is minimal and not worth worrying over.

And to counter the point that 'everyone can level everything', yes, that is true, however, not everyone wants to level everything. Say you have a META tank pairing of Warrior/Paladin, then the next fight is Dark Knight/Warrior, however, the Paladin tank only wants to level Paladin, they have no desire at all to level any other tank. Should they then be forced to level Warrior against their will just to make the fight easier?

This is just an expanded point against the old cross class skills. If I want to heal and only heal, why should I be forced to level Thaumaturge to learn Swiftcast? If you had no desire to level Paladin but you wanted to level Warrior, should you be forced to level Gladiator to learn Provoke? It is all about giving people the freedom to choose what they want to do, not being forced into it because reasons.

[Yagrush]

There's degrees and shades of homogenization, broad strokes coming from both sides of the argument are both guilty of generalizing a pretty complex issue.

I understand the purpose of homogenization and there's tasteful ways to make jobs play differently that are functionally the same, but then there's too much, such as Warrior's IR given to Dark Knight as Delirium.
No one wants all tank jobs to be the same in everybuthing but the animations, names and vfx of the abilities.

[Lyth]

Button counts have changed less than you might think.

Presently, if you exclude role actions, PLD has 26 buttons, GNB has 25 buttons, and DRK and WAR have 23 buttons. Even in Heavensward, tanks were in the 28-30 button range, but they also had correspondingly fewer cross-class actions that you could have active at a given time. And you'll also have to remember that this development of having actions sharing a button is a newer development. Previously you'd have abilities like Defiance and Deliverance on different keybinds.

You'll find that a lot of this push towards 'complexity' comes from people who don't actually want it. The Reaper job that was showcased during the last live letter was fairly complex. Four different resource systems, lots of context-specific buttons that change actions depending on what buffs you have active, and relatively fast gameplay. Even the burst window opts, while involving some degree of button spam, also reduces your GCD while it's active. The response? "This looks too fiddly". "I don't want positionals." And this is a really streamlined job. If you actually listened to those players, though, what would your response be? "Destroyed," "Easymode," "1-2-3" etc. And it probably would be the same people talking. There eventually comes a point when you've tested out both extremes of 'fiddly' and 'easymode' over a eight year period, and you can safely ignore the kneejerk reactions that players make to changes.

...

I thought that things like this were interesting when I played WAR in ARR, but they don't actually matter.

The only thing that we care about with mitigation is staying alive. As an example, let's say the boss that you're doing progression on finishes with an PBAoE before their enrage cast. Do you move out of the AoE? It really depends on whether you can survive it. If it's going to kill me no matter what I do, then I move out at the last safe moment to do so. Otherwise, I'd just pop all my remaining mitigation and stay on the boss. And I certainly wouldn't expect that damage to be healed up. It doesn't matter, because there's probably going to be no outgoing damage during the enrage cast.

The issue with mitigation on tanks is that we're the role least in danger of dying in any given encounter. If the primary focus is on raidwide damage and avoidable one-shot mechanics, who dies first? It's your ranged or your casters, who tend to have lower HP totals. Tanks don't care about raidwides. The reason why tanks historically have higher HP totals and higher defensive attributes in MMOs is because they're supposed to be the first player to die, before the boss proceeds to oneshot the raid with auto-attacks. If your tank dies, you lose. Even in earlier fights, you just had a much bigger fear of death on tank. I remember entering T9 for the first time and watching every third hit be a cleave that took away 2/3 of my health. Right now, it's swung to the opposite extreme, and we're burning our unused defensive actions to cheese mechanics to gain more uptime. It's like playing melee dps with a cheat code.

You actually have to design raid content to put all that defense, both passive and active, under some degree of stress. Which means that the overwhelming bulk of the outgoing damage needs to be on your tank, not on your raid group. Then gimmicks like this can be more interesting.