Homogenization and Simplicity in Tank Roles

[Lyth]

Soapbox aside, I think that FFXIV does a good job of offering something for everyone. The core game features and story are very accessible without requiring a time commitment. At the same time, there are plenty of exclusive rewards for clearing niche content. There is no lack of challenges, especially if you're into achievement hunting. Most of the people who are bored with the game just aren't looking for new challenges, or else we'd see more Necromancers riding around on Morbols.

I think that a lot of the complaints about one combo jobs and one button burst windows are coming from people only using one neuron to post. You don't need 32 different keybinds to have intricate gameplay. MOBAs and FPS games are proof of this. FPS games are especially bad, all you have to do is one button spam your left click, how easy is that? What makes these genres more complex than your standard MMO are the fact that factors like movement, anticipation, and aim are key determinants of skill. Yet throw in anything remotely resembling a skillshot into FFXIV and you'll see players complain about it being too cumbersome.

Actually, anyone who has played a tank in other MMOs could probably tell you that the factor limiting tanks right now is fight design. If you have tanks actually moving bosses around the map, the role becomes exponentially more interesting. The problem is that there is a lot of 1.0 movement jank that's buried under the flowery fight choreography that we see, and until they fix that, tanks aren't really getting the chance to be tanks.

If I had to pick a second issue, it would be the fact that invulns remove the need for you to understand how much damage you actually receive for any given damage spike. As long as invulns exist, mitigation is just a glorified quicktime event. If you just fix those two things alone, you'd dramatically change tank engagement overnight. I'm really just waiting to see whether Endwalker is capable of addressing these two points.

Outside of those gameplay elements, tank gameplay is essentially identical to playing a melee dps, and it's worth remembering that there actually are some pretty interesting melee dps out there now. Reaper even has TBN.

[Shin96]

Most of the people who are bored with the game just aren't looking for new challenges, or else we'd see more Necromancers riding around on Morbols.

I don't see how that has anything to do with job and role design though. Those are cherry-picked challenges, and the reason I haven't done them is because I'm simply not interested. 90% of the content you run all aside is suffering from the lack of poor reward structure and complacency with skill stagnation, as I have illustrated some posts before.

I think that a lot of the complaints about one combo jobs and one button burst windows are coming from people only using one neuron to post.

I think you like to forget the fact not everyone is named Lyth. Thank god you're not designing jobs, I already despise pressing 1-2-3 ad nauseam. As for the burst window, I like to think the designers aren't particularly skilled at coming up with anything else. Otherwise they would find more interesting ways for gameplay loops. Or maybe this is purely intentional given how bad the majority of players are in this game. If that's the case they are absolute geniuses.

Speak less from a point of authority and more adressing the actual issue which is the playerbase itself. You mentioned MOBA's and FPS games, but these are highly competitive in their self-contained nature, it makes sense to reduce the player input regarding buttons to press considering you are under perpetual stress of situational awareness and reflex. As this is not the case for FFXIV, the only framework to expand upon are actions and the jobs themselves. Why? Because there's a lack in all of the things I mentioned.

As for movement and all the other wonderful things we would like to have, it's never going to happen. Some people already miss pressing sprint on their hotbar, let alone go into a fight without any prior engagements or knowledge. And you expect it will go well? The reason we can't have nice things is because they are on a crusade to dumb this game down in every possible way. Your solution is a good start, but realistically speaking it's just as likely to happen as the return of the enmity system.

[KageTokage]

I'd like to hope incoming damage is going to get higher in EW because both tanks and healers seem to be getting significant buffs to their healing/mitigations and the overall gameplay for both is going to feel even more stale otherwise.

[Lyth]

...

I was really struggling to see how the seven or so posts in this thread prior to mine were
1) relevant to this thread
2) relevant to tanking and role design

So let me paraphrase. I do understand that everyone here has completed every 'worthwhile' challenge at the game and is distraught at how the more 'casual' playerbase is holding them back, but if we're done with the self-aggrandizement, it would be nice to get the thread back on track. Insert tactful segue here. Better now?

MMO games, as a genre, are mechanically very simple to begin with. There is no rotation that you can design which isn't going to become second nature to play after a month of focused playtime. That's exacerbated by the fact that this playerbase in particular bellyaches endlessly at any hint of randomness or variability. Oh, no procs please. Oh, no Critical Hit randomness please. Oh, no variable resource gains please. It'll mess up my perfect run. Because the rotation never changes, and because the fights never change, everything you ever do is a thinly disguised '1-2-3'. There is little difference between pressing 1-1-1-1-1 at fixed intervals and pressing 1-4-2-4-3-4, yet people fixate and obsess over this stuff.

Granted, the devs are getting more creative in using keyboard/controller real estate, using contextual keybinds that swap in and out as you need. This way you can have the illusion of varied keypresses without having a bunch of situational combo buttons that only get used once every 60 seconds. GNB and RPR did this fairly well, and you'll probably see more and more jobs doing this over the next few expansions or so. You're still essentially pressing 1-1-1 or 1-2-3, but at least you get different animations to keep you entertained. I still see this as fluff, but if it keeps people happy, I'm fine with that.

The core gameplay experience is that you fight a boss in a circular arena, you stay on the boss and adds without losing GCDs to mechanics. The focus should be on making that experience more engaging and varied. The rotation buttons that you press are fluff. It doesn't matter if you're typing out the lyrics to 'Mary had a little Lamb'. The button presses barely change from fight to fight. That's why adding a single new movement skill impacts job design far more than adding in three new happy meal combos that you can brag about to your friends.

The reason why a lot of other genres cut down on the number of keybinds while doubling down on the movement and mechanical game play is because it not only boosts the skill cap but is also visually a lot easier for streaming audiences to follow. RTS games go much more heavy down the keybind route and while it's mildly entertaining to watch the spectacle of the players' keyboard useage, most viewers can't decipher the flow of action. It really has nothing to do with pressing more buttons being more stressful.

I think we're already seeing a fairly large shift towards experimenting with more types of movement abilities this coming expansion. Players really enjoy using them, and the dev team is starting to recognize that. And you'll definitely see more of a skill differential between players that use these well and players that don't.

We're focusing on the wrong things. New action fluff sells expansions, but that isn't what's going to determine whether they stay interesting. If you want to address the many complaints about tanking and healing, you really have to look closely at fight design. And until more of us start talking about that, the dev team is just going to continue to focus in the wrong direction.

[Ryahask]

The ongoing saga of Tank & Healer job design in FFXIV has been homogenization and simplification since Heavensward. Largely, every additive change that improves the gameplay and depth of a role is paired with at least one reductive change that degrades the current state of the role. The reality is that post-Heavensward, both new expansions heavily homogenized the tank jobs and heavily simplified existing mechanics. However, I feel it is worth highlighting is that it's not particularly relevant to defend or bemoan the loss of specific systems. I loved stance dancing and aggro-management for tanks, but you may have hated it. What matters is that every time a substantial system or gameplay hook for Tank jobs has been removed, it has not been replaced. This means that tanks in modern FFXIV simply have less skill expression than they ever have in the past.

The underlying combat and content design of FFXIV is a significant driving factor in the continual erosion of tank design. In addition, it feels quite clear that the developers have deliberately homogenized and simplified the tank role, which means that unfortunately, we are unlikely to see any improvement in the future. A small part of me hoped that Endwalker would see a massive tank overhaul that would begin to reinvigorate the role, but I should have known better and the live letter all but confirmed their intentions to be the opposite.

Obviously, I cannot speak on behalf of the entire player base, but the constant erosion of tank design has definitely impacted a subset of the community. My retention rate in each expansion since Heavensward has continuously been lessening as I simply don't enjoy playing my chosen role anymore. The jobs are far too mindless, similar, and devoid of the player expression that makes them enjoyable. To be honest, with how Endwalker is shaping up if not for many close friends playing the expansion - I might not this time around. I do not have high hopes for the expansion, because the content can be amazing, but to retain interest beyond the initial playthrough requires that the gameplay be amazing as well - and I have no confidence left in the developers' ability to craft satisfying tank gameplay.

[AziraSyuren]

I actually do appreciate and respect it when people put their money where their mouth is and just quit instead of whining for changes that a majority of people don't even want.

Game's not for them now and that's okay.

[Bjinc]

Change comes from the inside. Every drk player could quit the game and it wouldnt be enough of a loss of income for them to notice. People are allowed to critisize something that has been arguablely generally been percieved as a decline in a job by a great many people, and voice those to the devs. Its happened many many times over the games lifespan, just look at the warrior changes of 4.1. 4.0 warrior was actual garbage, people gave feedback on it and then it was changed in 4.1 into an incredible job to play which has just been built on and made stronger since.

[Absurdity]

Its happened many many times over the games lifespan, just look at the warrior changes of 4.1. 4.0 warrior was actual garbage, people gave feedback on it and then it was changed in 4.1 into an incredible job to play which has just been built on and made stronger since.

Not exactly the best example because 4.2 completely redesigned warrior and arguably turned it into the mindless 1-2-3 spam with 5-5-5-5-5 spam every 90 seconds which has now also infested DrK.

Granted I fell into the trap of liking those changes initially as well, because 4.2 warrior was strong in terms of performance while also no longer requiring perfect execution of a 2 minute rotation.

I didn't notice how barebones the job actually was because other tank mechanics were distracting enough, enmity management, gauge management, Infuriate timers, mitigation.

Then ShB essentially removed enmity, the loss of stances meant no more extra crit from your gauge and reduced the management down to "have gauge to put Fellcleave in Trick Attack", 2 Infuriate charges made it basically irrelevant how many seconds remained on Infuriate's cooldown when you pop Inner Release and Inner Chaos made it so you couldn't press Infuriate during IR anyway, on top of that ShB made mitigation an absolute joke.

All minor changes but combined they really showed just how shallow and boring the 4.2 warrior actually was.