Adventurer in need

[DPZ2]

What blows my mind, is Square Enix looked at all the other MMORPGs that came before -- with five-person parties of one tank, one healer, and three DPS -- and said: "How about we take this bad situation, and make it even worse?

More likely: Square Enix looked at all of the other Final Fantasy games that came before, mostly 3-4 person parties, and said "We want to provide that JRPG feel to our new MMO" and then sized parties appropriately.

[Fyrebrand]

More likely: Square Enix looked at all of the other Final Fantasy games that came before, mostly 3-4 person parties, and said "We want to provide that JRPG feel to our new MMO" and then sized parties appropriately.

You could have made your point by simply saying "half the games in the series have parties of four." I don't see how mentioning all the games with three-person parties helps your case, as three is a different number from four. Are you trying to say that FFXIV has groups of four because other games had groups of three?
Also, if FFXIV had come out with dungeon parties of five players, I don't think anybody would be outraged at having lost some vague "JRPG feel."

[DPZ2]

You could have made your point by simply saying "half the games in the series have parties of four." I don't see how mentioning all the games with three-person parties helps your case, as three is a different number from four. Are you trying to say that FFXIV has groups of four because other games had groups of three?
Also, if FFXIV had come out with dungeon parties of five players, I don't think anybody would be outraged at having lost some vague "JRPG feel."

Apparently I didn't make my point at all, if you're objecting to the way it was stated, rather than the fact that the Home Audience for FFXIV was Japanese, used to Final Fantasy games (which are JRPGs), which have traditionally had fewer than 5 party members for encounters.

The fact that you, personally, wouldn't have been outraged if the game lost some of that traditional "JRPG feel" doesn't impress me. Nor does it provide an answer for the question "what's the particular advantage of the 5 member dungeon party?" other than because ... tradition?

[Fyrebrand]

Apparently I didn't make my point at all, if you're objecting to the way it was stated...

No, I was objecting to the fact that you were trying to bolster your point by referencing examples that didn't support it. You don't get to say FFXIV ought to have a 4-person party configuration, and then cite games that don't have that as evidence.

...rather than the fact that the Home Audience for FFXIV was Japanese, used to Final Fantasy games (which are JRPGs), which have traditionally had fewer than 5 party members for encounters.

FFXIV dungeon parties are made of 4 players, not "3-4" or some undefined "fewer than 5." It's 4. If this game had parties of 3 members, it would be a very different conversation (if such an MMO could even function, that is).

The fact that you, personally, wouldn't have been outraged if the game lost some of that traditional "JRPG feel" doesn't impress me.

Do you honestly think anybody would be upset, or feel that it's "not a real JRPG" if FFXIV had come out with 5-person dungeon groups? How about Final Fantasy IV? Is that not a real Final Fantasy game, to you? Is a single-person increase in the size of a party really what defines what a JRPG is? And why do big story arcs cap off with a "full party" of 8-person groups? Don't they care about that "JRPG feel" anymore?

Nor does it provide an answer for the question "what's the particular advantage of the 5 member dungeon party?" other than because ... tradition?

Dude, YOU are the only one appealing to tradition here. Your entire argument is nothing but explaining that it was a certain way in the past, therefore that's how it should be. Just TWO SENTENCES AGO you literally said: "Final Fantasy games (which are JRPGs), which have traditionally had fewer than 5 party members for encounters."

Anyway, as far as what the advantage would be of 5-person groups in an MMO, you need look no further than what this very thread is essentially about. People need to get into dungeons. Most people play DPS, and so the queue time for DPS is disproportionately longer than other roles. They literally had to install a system of rewards and incentives to get tanks/healers to run content repeatedly, just so people can get into required duties. If you had 3 DPS per group instead of 2, that would certainly help alleviate this problem somewhat. That's why I mentioned that so many other MMORPGs have 5-player groups -- because even in those cases, DPS still have longer queues. It wasn't because it's an MMO "tradition" or that the number 5 has some magical "feeling" about it.

[DPZ2]

That's why I mentioned that so many other MMORPGs have 5-player groups -- because even in those cases, DPS still have longer queues. It wasn't because it's an MMO "tradition" or that the number 5 has some magical "feeling" about it.

(From your initial post) "What blows my mind, is Square Enix looked at all the other MMORPGs that came before" sure looks like an argument based on "tradition".

My first response was an answer to why it wasn't a party of 5, which you rejected because mentioning smaller parties (of any size) didn't fit your narrative of "Parties of 5=Good", "Parties of 4=bad bad bad".

Would adding another DPS to the party decrease queue times? A little, perhaps. But this would be at the expense of content as the entire battle system would have to be redesigned. Argue as you will, FFXIV current battle designs are for multiples of 4 players.