Adventurer in need

[Fyrebrand]

What blows my mind, is Square Enix looked at all the other MMORPGs that came before -- with five-person parties of one tank, one healer, and three DPS -- and said: "How about we take this bad situation, and make it even worse? How about two DPS!?" Although, I assume they were forced into this decision due to "PS3 limitations" or server issues, or some other variety of hellish FFXIV 1.0 curse that they inherited.

Bottom line, in roulette, Tank and Healer are just not as fun as DPS...
DPS is that much easier to do. Even if you die, the party can generally trudge forth. You really only affect the speed the dungeon is cleared unless there are DPS/enrage checks. This lack of pressure is very appealing

I have to disagree there. I love healing, I feel quite comfortable in that role, and I don't feel like "lack of pressure" equates to fun. On the contrary, the sense of responsibility is exhilarating and makes me feel important. I prefer having a more holistic perspective of my party and how everybody is doing, and having to improvise on the fly, rather than succumbing to a preordained DPS "rotation." Plus, it feels good to be able to lend a safety net to newbies who are struggling with mechanics. I just feel compelled to take care of all my little dungeon babies!

Also, as someone who doesn't always have the greatest self-esteem or confidence in real life, healing is an extremely rewarding gameplay style. It tends to stamp out self-doubt real quick, because there is just no denying when you did a damn good job. You can feel it in your bones, and it doesn't matter what anybody else says or if you get any commendations.

That said, I do understand the shift in responsibilities when you play DPS. There is a certain weight taken off your back, but on the other hand it comes with other stressors. For example, doing primals as a melee DPS freaks me the f*ck out. I don't have the complete view of the area I would prefer, I'm running around like a chicken with its head cut off, I just want this whole thing to be over. Also, every single time I play my ninja character in a dungeon -- I swear, the tank pulls a bunch of mobs, pauses to wait for me to place down Doton, and then sprints away just to spite me. I consistently ask myself, "Why should I even try?" I have no idea if I'm a good or a bad DPS. Whatever the case, it all feels the same. There's no feedback, no appreciation. I could be doing a phenomenal job, executing mechanics perfectly, and no one cares.

[DPZ2]

What blows my mind, is Square Enix looked at all the other MMORPGs that came before -- with five-person parties of one tank, one healer, and three DPS -- and said: "How about we take this bad situation, and make it even worse?

More likely: Square Enix looked at all of the other Final Fantasy games that came before, mostly 3-4 person parties, and said "We want to provide that JRPG feel to our new MMO" and then sized parties appropriately.

[Fyrebrand]

More likely: Square Enix looked at all of the other Final Fantasy games that came before, mostly 3-4 person parties, and said "We want to provide that JRPG feel to our new MMO" and then sized parties appropriately.

You could have made your point by simply saying "half the games in the series have parties of four." I don't see how mentioning all the games with three-person parties helps your case, as three is a different number from four. Are you trying to say that FFXIV has groups of four because other games had groups of three?
Also, if FFXIV had come out with dungeon parties of five players, I don't think anybody would be outraged at having lost some vague "JRPG feel."

[DPZ2]

You could have made your point by simply saying "half the games in the series have parties of four." I don't see how mentioning all the games with three-person parties helps your case, as three is a different number from four. Are you trying to say that FFXIV has groups of four because other games had groups of three?
Also, if FFXIV had come out with dungeon parties of five players, I don't think anybody would be outraged at having lost some vague "JRPG feel."

Apparently I didn't make my point at all, if you're objecting to the way it was stated, rather than the fact that the Home Audience for FFXIV was Japanese, used to Final Fantasy games (which are JRPGs), which have traditionally had fewer than 5 party members for encounters.

The fact that you, personally, wouldn't have been outraged if the game lost some of that traditional "JRPG feel" doesn't impress me. Nor does it provide an answer for the question "what's the particular advantage of the 5 member dungeon party?" other than because ... tradition?

[Fyrebrand]

Apparently I didn't make my point at all, if you're objecting to the way it was stated...

No, I was objecting to the fact that you were trying to bolster your point by referencing examples that didn't support it. You don't get to say FFXIV ought to have a 4-person party configuration, and then cite games that don't have that as evidence.

...rather than the fact that the Home Audience for FFXIV was Japanese, used to Final Fantasy games (which are JRPGs), which have traditionally had fewer than 5 party members for encounters.

FFXIV dungeon parties are made of 4 players, not "3-4" or some undefined "fewer than 5." It's 4. If this game had parties of 3 members, it would be a very different conversation (if such an MMO could even function, that is).

The fact that you, personally, wouldn't have been outraged if the game lost some of that traditional "JRPG feel" doesn't impress me.

Do you honestly think anybody would be upset, or feel that it's "not a real JRPG" if FFXIV had come out with 5-person dungeon groups? How about Final Fantasy IV? Is that not a real Final Fantasy game, to you? Is a single-person increase in the size of a party really what defines what a JRPG is? And why do big story arcs cap off with a "full party" of 8-person groups? Don't they care about that "JRPG feel" anymore?

Nor does it provide an answer for the question "what's the particular advantage of the 5 member dungeon party?" other than because ... tradition?

Dude, YOU are the only one appealing to tradition here. Your entire argument is nothing but explaining that it was a certain way in the past, therefore that's how it should be. Just TWO SENTENCES AGO you literally said: "Final Fantasy games (which are JRPGs), which have traditionally had fewer than 5 party members for encounters."

Anyway, as far as what the advantage would be of 5-person groups in an MMO, you need look no further than what this very thread is essentially about. People need to get into dungeons. Most people play DPS, and so the queue time for DPS is disproportionately longer than other roles. They literally had to install a system of rewards and incentives to get tanks/healers to run content repeatedly, just so people can get into required duties. If you had 3 DPS per group instead of 2, that would certainly help alleviate this problem somewhat. That's why I mentioned that so many other MMORPGs have 5-player groups -- because even in those cases, DPS still have longer queues. It wasn't because it's an MMO "tradition" or that the number 5 has some magical "feeling" about it.

[DPZ2]

That's why I mentioned that so many other MMORPGs have 5-player groups -- because even in those cases, DPS still have longer queues. It wasn't because it's an MMO "tradition" or that the number 5 has some magical "feeling" about it.

(From your initial post) "What blows my mind, is Square Enix looked at all the other MMORPGs that came before" sure looks like an argument based on "tradition".

My first response was an answer to why it wasn't a party of 5, which you rejected because mentioning smaller parties (of any size) didn't fit your narrative of "Parties of 5=Good", "Parties of 4=bad bad bad".

Would adding another DPS to the party decrease queue times? A little, perhaps. But this would be at the expense of content as the entire battle system would have to be redesigned. Argue as you will, FFXIV current battle designs are for multiples of 4 players.

[kaynide]

What blows my mind, is Square Enix looked at all the other MMORPGs that came before -- with five-person parties of one tank, one healer, and three DPS -- and said: "How about we take this bad situation, and make it even worse? How about two DPS!?" Although, I assume they were forced into this decision due to "PS3 limitations" or server issues, or some other variety of hellish FFXIV 1.0 curse that they inherited.



I have to disagree there. I love healing, I feel quite comfortable in that role, and I don't feel like "lack of pressure" equates to fun. On the contrary, the sense of responsibility is exhilarating and makes me feel important. I prefer having a more holistic perspective of my party and how everybody is doing, and having to improvise on the fly, rather than succumbing to a preordained DPS "rotation." Plus, it feels good to be able to lend a safety net to newbies who are struggling with mechanics. I just feel compelled to take care of all my little dungeon babies!

Also, as someone who doesn't always have the greatest self-esteem or confidence in real life, healing is an extremely rewarding gameplay style. It tends to stamp out self-doubt real quick, because there is just no denying when you did a damn good job. You can feel it in your bones, and it doesn't matter what anybody else says or if you get any commendations.

That said, I do understand the shift in responsibilities when you play DPS. There is a certain weight taken off your back, but on the other hand it comes with other stressors. For example, doing primals as a melee DPS freaks me the f*ck out. I don't have the complete view of the area I would prefer, I'm running around like a chicken with its head cut off, I just want this whole thing to be over. Also, every single time I play my ninja character in a dungeon -- I swear, the tank pulls a bunch of mobs, pauses to wait for me to place down Doton, and then sprints away just to spite me. I consistently ask myself, "Why should I even try?" I have no idea if I'm a good or a bad DPS. Whatever the case, it all feels the same. There's no feedback, no appreciation. I could be doing a phenomenal job, executing mechanics perfectly, and no one cares.

This is a good attitude to have for healer- it's not really that hard, and exactly as you said: done well you do indeed feel great (and often get lots of commendations). Tank as well!

For some players (myself included) there is some pride in being able to take a "lead" role, but for a large amount of people, not so much- it can be debilitating even. My point was that given the option between playing the main lead and a backup dancer, a lot of people opt for backup.

In response to your DPS skill.. ehh.. if it's casual content, and you're clearing it in a reasonable amount of time, you're probably good. An alternative measure is to just see where you are in the enmity line. Party of 4 and you're #3/#2 most of the time..probably ok.

This is probably spillover from being a healer- you're used to doing your best and paying attention to what you're doing very well, so when you do DPS you're looking for that level of feedback to see if you're "doing it right" and there just really isn't anything there.

[badpuppeh]

wait for me to place down Doton, and then sprints away

While I don't doubt it may be malicious from time to time (I told a tank I was a brand-new healer, and he said ok then did a wall-to-wall pull and used no mitigation) I didn't know what doton was until I played NIN myself, and thought it was a mob AOE, and would move out of it.

[Ronduwil]

I have to disagree there. I love healing, I feel quite comfortable in that role, and I don't feel like "lack of pressure" equates to fun. On the contrary, the sense of responsibility is exhilarating and makes me feel important. I prefer having a more holistic perspective of my party and how everybody is doing, and having to improvise on the fly, rather than succumbing to a preordained DPS "rotation." Plus, it feels good to be able to lend a safety net to newbies who are struggling with mechanics. I just feel compelled to take care of all my little dungeon babies!

Neither of you are wrong, but the point is that most people don't enjoy the responsibility. Some people like you do. The biggest mistake that many game companies make is to assume that the preferences of a handful of avid fans on their game forums represent the preferences of the entire player base. The fact that you (and I, for that matter) get a rush out of having the capability to act as a safety net for struggling players doesn't change the fact that most players just want to put out big numbers and kill things without any sense of pressure or responsibility.