Adventurer in need

[RitsukoSonoda]

If the issue is that there aren't enough people playing tanks and healers, instead of putting a down a bigger reward for playing those roles in roulettes SQEX should probably try and address the underlying issue of why more people aren't playing and having fun with those roles.

If this dearth of tanks and healers exists and is that bad, it exists outside of roulettes. Putting a heavier "in need" bonus won't help fill slots in party finder. it won't help those roles show up more in PVP matches, etc. If there is an unhealthy imbalance in game, perhaps there is something about those roles that needs to an upgrade to draw more people to them.

IMO I don't see them making tank or healer more fun for a majority of the players that only play DPS without invalidating the DPS role entirely. The reason being is a majority of the DPS only players play that role because they want to be the one doing big damage numbers. It's pretty much the same issue on any MMO. Tank and healer don't output as much damage. Healer can loose damage output further if they have to heal frequently. The only part that makes this humorous is the amount of DPS that stand in stuff and die because they're doing 0 damage while faceplanted into the floor.

[Brennus]

IMO I don't see them making tank or healer more fun for a majority of the players that only play DPS without invalidating the DPS role entirely. The reason being is a majority of the DPS only players play that role because they want to be the one doing big damage numbers. It's pretty much the same issue on any MMO. Tank and healer don't output as much damage. Healer can loose damage output further if they have to heal frequently. The only part that makes this humorous is the amount of DPS that stand in stuff and die because they're doing 0 damage while faceplanted into the floor.

People will play what is fun for them to play. Tanks and healers do have a bit more "responsibility" to the survival of a group, and may cause some anxiety and therefore less attraction to a more "casual" player. I don't think SE can tweak tanks and healers to change this - if they did, it'd no longer be fun to play the classes, because there would be no differentiation between them and the DPS ones.

IMO the best game design philosophy is to make things fun for the players. Give them more incentive to play - and that includes roulettes. Ergo, offer more roulette incentives: more bonuses, better bonuses, bonuses more often, whatever it takes.

[ItMe]

IMO I don't see them making tank or healer more fun for a majority of the players that only play DPS without invalidating the DPS role entirely. The reason being is a majority of the DPS only players play that role because they want to be the one doing big damage numbers. It's pretty much the same issue on any MMO. Tank and healer don't output as much damage. Healer can loose damage output further if they have to heal frequently. The only part that makes this humorous is the amount of DPS that stand in stuff and die because they're doing 0 damage while faceplanted into the floor.

Oh definitely.
It's less about making healing / tanking more fun for DPS players, but more about strengthening their appeal to healer / tank players so you don't
A.) Lose them because they're dissatisfied.
B.) Compel them to que as tanks and healers for roulettes... which tank/healer mains have admitted to not wanting to do.

[Kes13a]

Oh definitely.
It's less about making healing / tanking more fun for DPS players, but more about strengthening their appeal to healer / tank players so you don't
A.) Lose them because they're dissatisfied.
B.) Compel them to que as tanks and healers for roulettes... which tank/healer mains have admitted to not wanting to do.

as a healer main, I still queue for roulettes... because, its always luck of the draw what kind of group you get, and some groups are just a fun mix. my partner often goes with, they tend towards playing everything though, if its been a particularily bad night for... less than able tanks, they may tank to give me a break and that way I only have to keep dps alive lol

[Asari5]

its pretty much an illusion. tank is not more difficult than dps. problem is most people do believe it is. but the tank is NOT the leader.
1. anyone can show the way... if there even is a way to chose xD
2. anyone can explain mechanics.
3. aggro management is almost non existent. as long as you hit the enemy its impossible to lose against a dos job.
4 . dps is more than just pushing a few buttons do its more difficult than most people seem to believe... altough they dont get punished if they dont do their maximum potential. and oh different to other mistakes... how dare we critizise dmg output? we can say how someone can tank better, but never say dps do too less damage.

what remains? using 1-3 mitigation skills each pull and for tank busters... not that much more difficult

ithelps using a skill every 2.5 seconds to make it easier as a healer btw

[Fyrebrand]

What blows my mind, is Square Enix looked at all the other MMORPGs that came before -- with five-person parties of one tank, one healer, and three DPS -- and said: "How about we take this bad situation, and make it even worse? How about two DPS!?" Although, I assume they were forced into this decision due to "PS3 limitations" or server issues, or some other variety of hellish FFXIV 1.0 curse that they inherited.

Bottom line, in roulette, Tank and Healer are just not as fun as DPS...
DPS is that much easier to do. Even if you die, the party can generally trudge forth. You really only affect the speed the dungeon is cleared unless there are DPS/enrage checks. This lack of pressure is very appealing

I have to disagree there. I love healing, I feel quite comfortable in that role, and I don't feel like "lack of pressure" equates to fun. On the contrary, the sense of responsibility is exhilarating and makes me feel important. I prefer having a more holistic perspective of my party and how everybody is doing, and having to improvise on the fly, rather than succumbing to a preordained DPS "rotation." Plus, it feels good to be able to lend a safety net to newbies who are struggling with mechanics. I just feel compelled to take care of all my little dungeon babies!

Also, as someone who doesn't always have the greatest self-esteem or confidence in real life, healing is an extremely rewarding gameplay style. It tends to stamp out self-doubt real quick, because there is just no denying when you did a damn good job. You can feel it in your bones, and it doesn't matter what anybody else says or if you get any commendations.

That said, I do understand the shift in responsibilities when you play DPS. There is a certain weight taken off your back, but on the other hand it comes with other stressors. For example, doing primals as a melee DPS freaks me the f*ck out. I don't have the complete view of the area I would prefer, I'm running around like a chicken with its head cut off, I just want this whole thing to be over. Also, every single time I play my ninja character in a dungeon -- I swear, the tank pulls a bunch of mobs, pauses to wait for me to place down Doton, and then sprints away just to spite me. I consistently ask myself, "Why should I even try?" I have no idea if I'm a good or a bad DPS. Whatever the case, it all feels the same. There's no feedback, no appreciation. I could be doing a phenomenal job, executing mechanics perfectly, and no one cares.

[DPZ2]

What blows my mind, is Square Enix looked at all the other MMORPGs that came before -- with five-person parties of one tank, one healer, and three DPS -- and said: "How about we take this bad situation, and make it even worse?

More likely: Square Enix looked at all of the other Final Fantasy games that came before, mostly 3-4 person parties, and said "We want to provide that JRPG feel to our new MMO" and then sized parties appropriately.

[Fyrebrand]

More likely: Square Enix looked at all of the other Final Fantasy games that came before, mostly 3-4 person parties, and said "We want to provide that JRPG feel to our new MMO" and then sized parties appropriately.

You could have made your point by simply saying "half the games in the series have parties of four." I don't see how mentioning all the games with three-person parties helps your case, as three is a different number from four. Are you trying to say that FFXIV has groups of four because other games had groups of three?
Also, if FFXIV had come out with dungeon parties of five players, I don't think anybody would be outraged at having lost some vague "JRPG feel."

[DPZ2]

You could have made your point by simply saying "half the games in the series have parties of four." I don't see how mentioning all the games with three-person parties helps your case, as three is a different number from four. Are you trying to say that FFXIV has groups of four because other games had groups of three?
Also, if FFXIV had come out with dungeon parties of five players, I don't think anybody would be outraged at having lost some vague "JRPG feel."

Apparently I didn't make my point at all, if you're objecting to the way it was stated, rather than the fact that the Home Audience for FFXIV was Japanese, used to Final Fantasy games (which are JRPGs), which have traditionally had fewer than 5 party members for encounters.

The fact that you, personally, wouldn't have been outraged if the game lost some of that traditional "JRPG feel" doesn't impress me. Nor does it provide an answer for the question "what's the particular advantage of the 5 member dungeon party?" other than because ... tradition?

[Fyrebrand]

Apparently I didn't make my point at all, if you're objecting to the way it was stated...

No, I was objecting to the fact that you were trying to bolster your point by referencing examples that didn't support it. You don't get to say FFXIV ought to have a 4-person party configuration, and then cite games that don't have that as evidence.

...rather than the fact that the Home Audience for FFXIV was Japanese, used to Final Fantasy games (which are JRPGs), which have traditionally had fewer than 5 party members for encounters.

FFXIV dungeon parties are made of 4 players, not "3-4" or some undefined "fewer than 5." It's 4. If this game had parties of 3 members, it would be a very different conversation (if such an MMO could even function, that is).

The fact that you, personally, wouldn't have been outraged if the game lost some of that traditional "JRPG feel" doesn't impress me.

Do you honestly think anybody would be upset, or feel that it's "not a real JRPG" if FFXIV had come out with 5-person dungeon groups? How about Final Fantasy IV? Is that not a real Final Fantasy game, to you? Is a single-person increase in the size of a party really what defines what a JRPG is? And why do big story arcs cap off with a "full party" of 8-person groups? Don't they care about that "JRPG feel" anymore?

Nor does it provide an answer for the question "what's the particular advantage of the 5 member dungeon party?" other than because ... tradition?

Dude, YOU are the only one appealing to tradition here. Your entire argument is nothing but explaining that it was a certain way in the past, therefore that's how it should be. Just TWO SENTENCES AGO you literally said: "Final Fantasy games (which are JRPGs), which have traditionally had fewer than 5 party members for encounters."

Anyway, as far as what the advantage would be of 5-person groups in an MMO, you need look no further than what this very thread is essentially about. People need to get into dungeons. Most people play DPS, and so the queue time for DPS is disproportionately longer than other roles. They literally had to install a system of rewards and incentives to get tanks/healers to run content repeatedly, just so people can get into required duties. If you had 3 DPS per group instead of 2, that would certainly help alleviate this problem somewhat. That's why I mentioned that so many other MMORPGs have 5-player groups -- because even in those cases, DPS still have longer queues. It wasn't because it's an MMO "tradition" or that the number 5 has some magical "feeling" about it.