Best designed DPS and Worst designed.

[Easayia]

Bard needs a few changes and improvement but its playstyle and way it works is not remotely badly designed in anyway.

[Jirah]

To me, Bard is the worst designed. While MCH is arguably more boring it at least has some Big Buttons and the very active heat window (yes, it's just mashing the same buttons but at least it's something). Bard just has nothing that actually feels good or rewarding. There's more to do than on MCH but none of it makes you go "Wow" or "Ooh that was fun." There isn't anything that makes you feel like you really contributed to the party. It also doesn't really feel like it fits it's identity and role at all. Not speaking number balance, but the DPS isn't enough of a focus for a DPS job. The support element that feels like it should be the focus for a Bard can't really be the focus because of the design of the game.

I’m noticing a disturbing pattern just now, back in SB I used to see a few “MCH sucks” threads and how it isn’t easy or straight forward but the major issue it had was a abysmal progression kit, and most of the debates were laughably bad due to people not even leveling it to 70 or understating the job

Years later, MCH got the lethal injection and BRD a job once praised for its kit is now suffering the same unjust treatment from people that either just repeating the echo, or so used to MCH and DNC lax nature that using a dot is seen as alienating, I get BRD isn’t as good as SB but I almost never see anyone bring it up it’s always comparisons to DNC and MCH which (idk if I’m the only the feels this way but) are NOT very good jobs to compare BRD too or any job really.

One being boring and kinda deleting the whole point of the game and the other so brand new it doesn’t have a camp of critiques yet (coming soon in EW)

Perhaps I’m paranoid since this patterns ends with a lobotomy as so many jobs have suffered so far in SHB

[Shironeko_Narunyan]

I’m noticing a disturbing pattern just now, back in SB I used to see a few “MCH sucks” threads and how it isn’t easy or straight forward but the major issue it had was a abysmal progression kit, and most of the debates were laughably bad due to people not even leveling it to 70 or understating the job

Years later, MCH got the lethal injection and BRD a job once praised for its kit is now suffering the same unjust treatment from people that either just repeating the echo, or so used to MCH and DNC lax nature that using a dot is seen as alienating, I get BRD isn’t as good as SB but I almost never see anyone bring it up it’s always comparisons to DNC and MCH which (idk if I’m the only the feels this way but) are NOT very good jobs to compare BRD too or any job really.

One being boring and kinda deleting the whole point of the game and the other so brand new it doesn’t have a camp of critiques yet (coming soon in EW)

Perhaps I’m paranoid since this patterns ends with a lobotomy as so many jobs have suffered so far in SHB

Not everyone is you, or has the same likes as you, nor is your opinion more than just the opinion of one of millions of players.
Your post history is telling.

[Shurrikhan]

Not everyone is you, or has the same likes as you, nor is your opinion more than just the opinion of one of millions of players.
Your post history is telling.

Yet, it's a very popular opinion among former MCH mains. The matter just asks (A) whether job design should appeal primarily to those who would potentially enjoy a given job or to those who already do and (B) whether any change which seems to come at (or retain) considerable cost to one side or the other should be acceptable at all.

[Kabooa]

Yet, it's a very popular opinion among former MCH mains. The matter just asks (A) whether job design should appeal primarily to those who would potentially enjoy a given job or to those who already do and (B) whether any change which seems to come at (or retain) considerable cost to one side or the other should be acceptable at all.

I enjoyed StB machinist and still relatively enjoy ShB Machinist. The two are not that different from each other. If you take the time to analyze the two of them, you will find the gameflow remains mostly the same, but less punishing for ShB while it also addressed most of the feedback StB got.

It has problems, but not many of the jobs don't have identifiable problems with it, but Machinist has two primary problems.

1. It still has ping dependency, but there's a ton of ways to fix this - the least obtrusive way is to just give Gauss/Richo 4 charges (120s total recharge compared to 90 now), but giving it the Bunshin treatment also works. A more complicated answer is making Gauss / Richo and some other ability share charges ("Ammo") and give them variable cost, power, and supplementary effects, but that's more than a summary can provide. This would primarily be to help the ping issue when dealing with potential openers.

2. It hasn't really 'grown'. As seems to be the case for most of the notable problem jobs this expansion (and even select examples of the 'good' jobs), there's distinct openings in the kit that need to be filled.

As far as problems go, these ones are pretty mild and easy to fix. I consider Apex arrow a far bigger problem that needs addressing, and that's just one of Bard's.

[Shironeko_Narunyan]

Yet, it's a very popular opinion among former MCH mains. The matter just asks (A) whether job design should appeal primarily to those who would potentially enjoy a given job or to those who already do and (B) whether any change which seems to come at (or retain) considerable cost to one side or the other should be acceptable at all.

If you watch the numbers, which is obviously what's informing SE's design decisions, you'll find that the number of players running MCH has gone up.

This is a bit of a philosophical problem anyway, kind of like there's a shortage of tanks and healers, and changing the gameplay around won't help, because it's the roles themselves, and the meta-things around them (have to know the way, the mobs, the encounters, carry responsibility etc) that don't work for most people.
In the case of MCH, there are just more than one type of player wanting to play the job, with each hoping for a different direction.

SMN is getting their rework right now, and you bet that, no matter how it will turn out, there will be long complaint threads on this forum, and chances are high that aforementioned poster will be heavily involved again, as indicated by their post history.

[Shurrikhan]

If you watch the numbers, which is obviously what's informing SE's design decisions, you'll find that the number of players running MCH has gone up.

That's irrelevant to my point, though. You're assuming a warrant's correctness despite its obviously being in contention. Being absent of weaknesses, even if it saps a great deal of complexity, will almost always end up more broadly popular than what is produced by distinct and thematically cohesive design, yet classes with some of the greatest player satisfaction levels (or otherwise seem to be most deeply appealing) here and in other MMOs, especially among long-term players of those classes, tend towards the latter. That Class X has more players now, especially when handily ignoring a hefty population increase over the same period, does not remove the question of whether a job's appeal should be measured solely by, say, the number of players who have level-capped it.

Personally, I would rather have 6 jobs that appeal to me deeply than 12 that appeal only to a shallow degree.

Yes, metrics applicable to depth rely on player perspective, as opposed than breadth's more easily gathered measurements such as level progress, achievements, or trackable playtime (even if the latter requires a great deal of sorting and categorization to render any useful information), and therefore have far smaller in-practice sample sizes, but that doesn't mean depth of attraction should be considered irrelevant.

SMN is getting their rework right now, and you bet that, no matter how it will turn out, there will be long complaint threads on this forum, and chances are high that aforementioned poster will be heavily involved again, as indicated by their post history.

You say this like it's something hypocritical, skewed, or otherwise irrational. It's not. They had something they liked and a direction for the job they enjoyed that would seem to indicate a path forward that appealed to them. That job and its path were changed significantly, favoring a direction that aligns with trends worrisome and dislikable to them. Why should they not complain?

Yes, every preference, every relevant thing one could ever like or dislike could be called a "bias", but why the heck shouldn't someone argue for what they like, especially when systemic constraints would appear to undervalue the position they share to the advantage of positions which would squelch it? Their post history shows consistency to a particular preference.

Perhaps that preference in turn comes from a particular principle or two. Perhaps it's eclectic. The difference matters little. It's a preference they're free to argue towards, and I would think their consistency would make for a better landmark for the job's discussion than it everyone were to embrace the new and work only to address its last few pain points. (This is not pointed at you, Kabooa; your second point there, and indeed the way you treat job design in general, obviously shows greater patience and interest. I speak only of what's generally been attempted to head off discourse among Monk, Bard, Summoner, Dragoon, Machinist, Dark Knight, Warrior, and Healer mains.)

[Jirah]

BRD- it’s progression kit has aged badly this expansion and doesn’t pack its customary punch until mid 60s, on top of that its support lacks the engagement it once had in SB which likely will never be the case again. Besides that I think BRD is the best designed Ranged job in the game, just needs it’s screwed tighten, some control over Soul, and have a more depthful support spread as nice as BV and NM is it needs just a few more skills similar in vein to curing waltz or somthing mechanical instead of shallow

DNC- it’s new I’ll give it a pass just this once but ima start spreading that shun train in EW, this jobs progression kit due to starting so late is pretty dam shallow and uneventful, Insert Ciara joke (1-2 Step) flourish is such a game changer to its fun factor that I never play this thing unless it’s in SHB content. Also just plainly not a fan of Saber dance and esprit. Feels like it could’ve been a nice spending mechanic turned into discount perma-brotherhood also fans are too RNG reliant? Idk just it’s still too common to Flourish and get nothing also the Technic burst phase plainly doesn’t feel fun imo. Spicy hot take but feels way to samey it’s a nice base but still feels not quite up to its prime kit wise.

MCH- hands down the best progression kit in the game, meaning skills you get as you level. At lv 50 it rivals RDM and SAM for completeness and just leaves the other jobs at the level in the dust including its cousins...its just those 30 levels don’t add Jacksh** but Drill and BS and just stagnates and doesn’t evolve at all in any meaningful way. Best thing I can say is it’s a fun 50 job, but all jobs typically advance and get new mechanics and systems beyond it while MCH doesn’t. It’s debatably more shallow than DNC but hey DNC still has Close position and some support but god this thing is in a dire need of a boost and it’s central mechanics just don’t compare to any other job in the game imo

[Equitable_Remedy]

For me the best designed dps would be:

1. NIN

This is correct.

[Jirah]

If you watch the numbers, which is obviously what's informing SE's design decisions,

Any link to these numbers? Also if this were the case BLM would be been reworked 3 times over as its not a popular as RDM and even some melee, but has the best well rounded kit. Popularity numbers meta mean nothing