Serious Question: New Mentor seeking community advice on dealing with bad players.

[Ranylyn]

Long story short... calling people out for playing badly is against ToS; it's harassment. And overall, I understand this sentiment.

This is why I've always tried to be as encouraging as possible. If we wipe, be like "Hey, it's okay, that caught us off guard, but we know for next time, we can do this!" I want players to grow and improve, not shrink inwards and suffer for negative experiences.

Here's the problem: As a healer, sometimes there's those players that just... can't be kept up with, you know? The players who stand in EVERYTHING, expecting to just be babysat through every mechanic?

What's the best way of dealing with those players as a mentor?

I had such an experience tonight. I forgot to turn off my mentor crown before going into Alliance Raids (As much as I WANT to offer advice, it's pointless since someone always pulls immediately and there's no time to type!) I had to start leaving two players (My alliance's tank, and a monk) dead whenever we could get away with it. The tank in particular was being a total smartass, sassing every comment everyone made. I had to apologize to the party for being less free with the revives due to limited resources, and the tank sassed me by saying "Resources are things like woods or metals, mana is a pool, you have enough." It was becoming very clear this guy had no intention of changing their ways. So I just grit my teeth and resolved to do my best to keep everyone else alive as best I could - and the tank if I had resources to spare.

We had some first timers I regrettably couldn't explain mechanics to, and they thought it was their fault, so I had to try to encourage them, like "No, no, it's okay, most of you are fine, especially you, other healer, promise!" When we finally won after several very sloppy wipes, I praised the people who were clearly being down on themselves, including two first timers and someone who hadn't done it in a long time. The tank jumped on this. "Saying the rest of us sucked, huh? How did you become a mentor when you're that toxic?" Flabbergasted at his aggression, I told him off for it, explaining that they stood in EVERYTHING and NO healer has enough resources to babysit that. I ended on "No offense, but I'm not the problem" and just left, when I had originally intended to stick around and offer more detailed advice to the others so they'd be better prepared for next time. And it feels bad. (And yes, I'm basically openly admitting to breaking ToS, because I admit my mistakes and learn from them. Case in point: coming here to ask for advice!)


How do the rest of you handle players like that? Is there some kind of community guideline, or is it on a case-by-case basis? In the event of a case-by-case basis, in this kind of scenario, what would YOU have personally done? How does one encourage the players who need encouragement without drawing the ire of people like this tank, and IF the tank gets on your case, how do you deal with it?

[Kes13a]

one reason I never got the mentor icon is because, I dont mind helping people. not in it for the rewards or a title.

I help where I can. I do my best to be supportive of new people, let them know if I can whats coming up etc. if the mechs are tough for first timers certainly try and explain it to them.

difficult people, be they tanks, healers or dps, I just deal with and move on. if they die, I raise them as I would anyone else, and I certainly wouldnt leave them laying on the floor.

but thats just the way I heal, everyone is equal, even if they are an idiot. I have one job, to heal and to rez, and toss in damage if no one needs healing or rezzing. to me, leaving people laying on the floor is just plain rude. so I couldnt do it even if they are a complete jerkface.

[ItMe]

Don't offer advice, ask if anyone wants help.
If no, you've done your job.
If they're looking for help and still stink, do your best and you've done your job.

[SturmChurro]

Don't offer advice, ask if anyone wants help.
If no, you've done your job.
If they're looking for help and still stink, do your best and you've done your job.

Agreed. A player should only offer advice if asked, or in rare circumstances. The only time I will ever offer 'unsolicited' advice is if we have wiped several times, and I state the mechanic, and what should be done, rather than calling someone in the party our for doing something wrong... I'm pretty sure you can get reported and banned for calling someone out anyway - not worth it. If I think DPS is low, and I'm annoyed, I might say "our" dps seems low, or something along those lines, again not calling anyone out, and including myself even though I know it's not me (usually).

In the case of a tank like this, you can always use the kick function, if that is what you think is necessary.

[Ranylyn]

Don't offer advice, ask if anyone wants help.
If no, you've done your job.
If they're looking for help and still stink, do your best and you've done your job.

I generally try to do that exact thing, actually. Ask if anyone needs help, not offer it if no one speaks up, and so on. Fortunately, I've never had BOTH someone who DID want advice AND someone who spoke up about wanting the blind experience in the same party, yet!

The problem is... more and more, lately, I've been seeing parties that... honestly... make me feel like *I'M* the problem, like "I'M the one carrying these people to the endgame! I'M the reason I see people who don't dodge easily avoidable AoEs in Post Shadowbringers trials like the Seat of Sacrifice, or the Cloud Deck!" And I just... it feels like I'm failing as a mentor. My advice goes in one ear and out the other and nothing ever changes and somehow those people make it to endgame without understanding the core fundamental mechanics. There has to be more I can do as a mentor, and I just don't know what. (Doesn't help that every time I poke my head into the Novice Network, several other mentors are too busy teaching people how to make a Healers Adjust Superbolide Removal macro to actually mentor. I stopped going to help out in there since memelord mentors are just making my job harder.)

I dunno, am I just stressing over nothing? Am I seeing a losing battle where it's not even my fight to fight? I admit I have a bad habit of getting too emotionally invested into my tasks, and taking things so seriously that hobbies become jobs. It can be hard for me to tell, sometimes.


In response to SturmChurro, regarding kicking, IIRC kicking someone for being a bad player is also against ToS, but you have a fair point. I'm always afraid to kick people but harassment is a kickable offense and their attitude was absolutely crossing into that. I'll try to be more mindful of it in the future, thanks!


EDIT: So just to clarify: Everyone messes up sometimes. I'm not going "One vuln stack is one bad player." I mean people who consistently just STAND in everything. People who have several seconds to move to safety just 5 steps away and just sit there, every time, without any kind of obvious lag tells. Just in case I wasn't clear.

[ItMe]

I dunno, am I just stressing over nothing?

Seems to me like you're really putting your heart into this ♡
That's admirable~

The problem is... more and more, lately, I've been seeing parties that... honestly... make me feel like *I'M* the problem, like "I'M the one carrying these people to the endgame! I'M the reason I see people who don't dodge easily avoidable AoEs in Post Shadowbringers trials like the Seat of Sacrifice, or the Cloud Deck!" And I just... it feels like I'm failing as a mentor. My advice goes in one ear and out the other and nothing ever changes and somehow those people make it to endgame without understanding the core fundamental mechanics.

I used to be a middle school teacher.
I would sometimes feel the same way when I had to meet a student much more than halfway in order to try and help them.
I learned that not everyone is interested in learning (compounded in your situation since they're not at school but chilling in a videogame), and that it wasn't my job to force them to learn (this is especially true for you too).

You're not there to make everyone better at the game, that's an impossible task.
Do what you can, help those that want it, and maybe try to encourage disinterested parties. The fact that you're fretting about this shows your heart is in the right place, but the failures of other players is not automatically put on your plate as your responsibility to correct. Heck, the game is designed so people can get carried through a pretty surprising amount of content cuz some people are just here for the story. And if the game isn't stopping them and saying "time to get better," a mentor probably shouldn't either.

If you're approachable and have a nifty bag of helpful resources you're doing super ~

I fear I rambled a bit there, but hopefully that helps~

(Doesn't help that every time I poke my head into the Novice Network, several other mentors are too busy teaching people how to make a Healers Adjust Superbolide Removal macro to actually mentor. I stopped going to help out in there since memelord mentors are just making my job harder.)
[...]
There has to be more I can do as a mentor, and I just don't know what.

If you are truly unsatisfied and can't shake the feeling that you should be doing more... maybe spend some more time in the Novice Network?
That's a good place for helpful people to be.

[Ranylyn]

I fear i rambled a bit there, but hopefully that helps~

As an IRL tutor, myself, everything you just said makes perfect sense to me. While I've never had a student who TRULY "refused" to learn, they were ALL resistant, because they were falling through the cracks of the education system so how could I help them when the professionals couldn't?

I guess that's where this urge to be a better mentor is coming from, if I had to guess. I've never "failed" to teach a student before. It was always just a matter of working with them for a bit, learning how they learn, recontextualizing their classwork into a format they can digest, and once we have proof it works, start teaching them how to convert the things their textbooks and teachers say INTO that format. For example, for someone who just looks at a wall of text and locks up, it was sometimes a matter of things like color coded charts to break it up into easily digestible pieces, etc.

The thing is... that's a process that takes WEEKS. I have MINUTES with players in FF14. I can't compare the two experiences, they're apples and car tires.

Thanks for helping me put it into perspective by bringing up the school teacher angle. You've really helped me a lot, and I'm very grateful!


You too, SturmChurro! You've given me a lot to think about!

[ItMe]

Thanks for helping me put it into perspective by bringing up the school teacher angle. You've really helped me a lot, and I'm very grateful!

/fistbump

So you're a mentor, with every single combat job at level 80, despite having only played for a few days?

It shows beneath our avatars when we joined the forums (looks like they joined within the last few days) but how can you tell how old someone's account is?

[SturmChurro]

..

The thing is, if someone doesn't want to learn, or is set in their ways - they simply aren't going to take any of your advice to heart. They have their own way of doing things, and nothing you say or do will really change that. A person who is willing to receive advice has to be actively wanting to improve. It really just requires a certain mindset.

Kicking for "difference in playstyles" is supposedly a legitimate kick, however one shouldn't go around and say they are kicking a player because they "are bad", or whatever, as that would probably be a legitimate report and maybe even a strike or warning. If that player is actively harassing you or others, then that is also worthy of a report, if you so choose, as well.

[Kolsykol]

Don't offer advice, ask if anyone wants help.
If no, you've done your job.
If they're looking for help and still stink, do your best and you've done your job.

Sometimes someone needs help but doesn't know that they need help.
And it's a total Russian roulette whether they'll lose their shit at you or be grateful.

You shouldn't be rude about it but even if you really bend over backwards to be as polite as you possibly can be people will interpret it as a personal attack if you notice that they're not doing a single positional and/ or are standing in front of the boss and get hit by AoE.
It's like they're embarrassed that someone noticed they don't know what they're doing and instead of accepting the help they get mad.
Heck even if they don't care about positionals and don't even want to make that effort, instead of saying that they often either lie to your face and pretend like they have a permanent true north buff or they get mad.
Or both.