Controversioal Changes to Monk

[IruruCece]

That aside, I agree with Dezzmont. And, I both think and feel.. that the aesthetic and identity of a Subclass is just as important, if not more important, than the game-play of the Subclass...

Hard disagree. Aesthetics mean next to nothing in a videogame if it is not engaging, and gameplay is what makes the vast majority of vidoegames engaging. We're not playing a walking sim here, we're playing an MMORPG.

Monk is literally the perfect example of why "Aesthetics over Gameplay" is a flawed argument. At best, an "aesthetic" should set the tone for the kit, but if the kit doesn't compel players to engage with that "aesthetic", it doesn't matter.

For years, Monk has been built around being the "speedy, combo-heavy job." Positionals emphasize that speed and mobility, demanding players stay in motion next to a single target in order to maximize their output. Greased Lightning was both the core mechanic of the job AND the reward for the player who stayed aggressive and maintained their combos. There was clearly an intended ebb and flow to the gameplay, a "build up" to maximum speed and strength.

But because players could "fail" to maintain GL, in many instances due to circumstances completely outside of their control, SE ultimately ended up cutting it, failing to actually address that singular issue which has been present since 2.0.

The thing is, the outward "aesthetic" of Monk is still present. It is still fast (permanently), it is still combo-driven (123, 456, 123, 123, 456, 123, 123...), it still has positionals (only one of which truly matters due to an outsized emphasis on our LEVEL 1 DPS BUTTON), we still throw chi around, we still have chakra generation (that is still RNG in nature on top having very unsatisfying things to spend it on), and our animations involve us punching and kicking things like monks in other fictional settings. None of that matters though, because fewer people are taking Monks into endgame content than almost every other DPS in the game.

[Mikey_R]

Monk is literally the perfect example of why "Aesthetics over Gameplay" is a flawed argument.

This so much. I love the aesthetic of Monk, punching and kicking things to death has always appealed to me, however, the gameplay I feel has gone downhill since Stormblood and it was at this point I started forming a love/hate relationship with the job. Love the aesthetics, gameplay....not so much. That is mainly because it just was not evolving through the expansions like other jobs and it has just been stuck in the past.

In contrast, Dragoon gameplay has just evolved over the expansions, building on what what it already had. It never felt stuck in the past, even it's GCD rotation got changed up through the expansions. Similar things have happened to Samurai and Ninja, but again, Monk was left behind.

If Monk doesn't get back the same feeling as HW or even ARR, then this might be the first time I don't make it one of my priority jobs to level in EW as 3 expansions of mediocrity is just too much.

[Kolsykol]

Broad appeal, broadly speaking is Gaming biggest cancer. In order for games to be as versatile and lucrative as possible they need a base game that pleases everyone, which usually fails to engage.

Audiences rather have quick gratification rather than to work and progress, hence why mobile apps are popular. Going back on topics the worst outcome is for all jobs to be homogenized and accessible to the point of it being appealing to a broader audience, this takes away their identity as individuals and waters down the gameplay to shallow ends, until they decide the trials and mechanics need to be “broad”

Broad appeal is like vanilla ice cream.
Is it tasty?
Sure.

But do you really want there to only be vanilla ice cream?

This obsession with '' broad appeal '' is why I find AAA gaming to be so insanely stale and uninspired.
There's nothing wrong about it necessarily the problem is when there is a lack of choice, and different choices mean that there are going to be choices that doesn't suit everyones tastes.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Hard disagree. Aesthetics mean next to nothing in a videogame if it is not engaging, and gameplay is what makes the vast majority of vidoegames engaging. We're not playing a walking sim here, we're playing an MMORPG.

Monk is literally the perfect example of why "Aesthetics over Gameplay" is a flawed argument. At best, an "aesthetic" should set the tone for the kit, but if the kit doesn't compel players to engage with that "aesthetic", it doesn't matter.

Straight after when I did type "the aesthetic and identity of a Subclass is just as important, if not more important, than the game-play of the Subclass..."
I also did type: "The identity and aesthetic should come first, and then the game-play design needs to fit and match the aesthetic and the identity."

I may have chosen my words wrong, my apologies.
My English is not exact to Merican English, and I mess up with my attempts to express what I mean, at times...

I meant to make the implication: "both or bust". Just one or the other is not quite good enough, and both need to be prevalent, and function well enough...
I did not mean, or intend to type, that one or the other should or does have priority over the other.

Game-play with no proper expression of Aesthetic and identity is low-quality and a failure. Aesthetic and identity with lousy game-play is low-quality and a failure. Both need to be good enough, and function well together... where FFXIV.. for the most part, lacks that. most of the Subclasses have one or the other side good enough, with the other side being a low-quality failure.

That said, I feel like some people would claim that they think or feel that some of the Subclasses lack in both a Aesthetic and Identity, and in game-play.

[nalgene]

(only one of which truly matters due to an outsized emphasis on our LEVEL 1 DPS BUTTON)

This is obvious when you point it out but it never occurred to me how the most powerful regular button literally is the level 1 skill lol. Kind of unsatisfying.

Reminds me of another point someone on the forum made about how Monk often feels weak because a lot of the more powerful looking animations just get cut off early.

[dezzmont]

The complaints about Bootshine are sorta the exact point I am making. Thematics and mechanics are often actually pretty clearly linked and pretending they are some opposing, or non-complementary elements, is very silly, when in reality thematics exist to heighten appeal and sell you on what is happening mechanically, and make it actually something the average person will care about. This is something any game designer worth their salt cares about a lot: If your themematic elements, sound design, visual design, and mechanics aren't working all towards the same goal, you screwed up. You don't 'sacrifice mechanics to do good thematics.' None are 'lower priority' than the other, because they are all part of the same package that creates a game's "Gamefeel."

Heck, there are games that experiment with deliberately screwing this up to make the experience unpleasant or offputting. Cruelty Squad immediately comes to mind, and its weapons actively feel... upsetting to use due to their animations and sounds not really matching how they 'should.'

Bootshine spam is a perfect example because it is both a mechanical and almost the same thing mechanically as just spamming Fell Cleave, but with some extra wiggling on the flank, two buttons, and some weaving sometimes. It isn't exactly the same, but its mechanical function is pretty much the same. You hit a button to activate a mode that lets you spam your best attack for a bit. Burst Phase ability, very common among the jobs. Why is Fell Cleave loved and Bootshine Spam bad? Because its on an ability that doesn't feel good to spam, because its already part of your rotation and its animation is... not designed to be a capstone ability.

If PB instead let monks suddenly smash a totally seperate ability that was... IDK... a Kenshiro style infinite punch smackdown where every attack came with a little mini explosion, ending with a bigger one... would the job be functionally different? No. Would it be better and more popular and feel at least somewhat better? We can ask Automation Queen on that one: Yes! Even though the MCH rework is kinda not great at the very least playing MCH doesn't feel totally limp.

Don't get me wrong at all: you don't need to make a job literally everyone will like playing at high level, or ignore the mechanical crunch and sweep it under the rug with good visual and sound design, and making the rotation have a 'big meme button to release the dopamine' (I think MCH being kinda 'meh' is what happens when you just focus on making sure a job has a ton of "Release Dopamine" buttons, and hopefully whatever comes for Monk is going to be mechanically interesting). But you definitely need some of that "Final Fantasy Polish" where your going through your rotation sweating as you approach THAT MOMENT of it, the REASON you are playing that job.

[Garnix]

Not a main MNK, but....
IMO if there is one issue with MNK positional, it is the fact that they just offer potency bonus.
You see DRG's Raiden Thrust? This is a positional bonus done right IMO. The type of thing MNK needs. It doesn't change your gameplay, but it is more visual and significant than a potency change.
Like, instead of True Strike being 30potency stronger from the rear, make it so that if you punch the rear, your next weapon skill is upgraded. And make those upgraded skills 30 potency higher and look badass. For example, make Tifa's dolphin uppercut part of it.

I just think upgrading the ARR combo to something beautiful would be nice, even if it's just visual effects.

Looking at Tifa in FF7R, this is exactly what MNK should be like IMO: fast attacks, moving a lot. XIV obviously tries to replicate that without being an action game. If you take the positional away, MNK becomes a very static job. And all I want is my MNK to be a bit like Tifa (but not as good looking of course).

Other changes that could be good : Chakra should cap at 10 to avoid overcapping.
Some skills still need to be adjusted: All 3 fists, 6-sided, probably anatman too. But truth be told, I don't really care nor do I know what they could/should do with those.
And, if the other melees keep their ranged attack, add Chi Blast, even if you should never use it.

[Kolsykol]

Not a main MNK, but....
IMO if there is one issue with MNK positional, it is the fact that they just offer potency bonus.
You see DRG's Raiden Thrust? This is a positional bonus done right IMO. The type of thing MNK needs. It doesn't change your gameplay, but it is more visual and significant than a potency change.
Like, instead of True Strike being 30potency stronger from the rear, make it so that if you punch the rear, your next weapon skill is upgraded. And make those upgraded skills 30 potency higher and look badass. For example, make Tifa's dolphin uppercut part of it.

I just think upgrading the ARR combo to something beautiful would be nice, even if it's just visual effects.

Looking at Tifa in FF7R, this is exactly what MNK should be like IMO: fast attacks, moving a lot. XIV obviously tries to replicate that without being an action game. If you take the positional away, MNK becomes a very static job. And all I want is my MNK to be a bit like Tifa (but not as good looking of course).

Other changes that could be good : Chakra should cap at 10 to avoid overcapping.
Some skills still need to be adjusted: All 3 fists, 6-sided, probably anatman too. But truth be told, I don't really care nor do I know what they could/should do with those.
And, if the other melees keep their ranged attack, add Chi Blast, even if you should never use it.

This is actually a good point imo and I think that maybe we could get a big hitter that you build up to through landing positionals.
So you build up to it with positionals instead of crits.

Or just do it for Forbidden Chakra, it'd make it less RNG too.

[IruruCece]

Not a main MNK, but....
IMO if there is one issue with MNK positional, it is the fact that they just offer potency bonus.
You see DRG's Raiden Thrust? This is a positional bonus done right IMO. The type of thing MNK needs. It doesn't change your gameplay, but it is more visual and significant than a potency change.

Like, instead of True Strike being 30potency stronger from the rear, make it so that if you punch the rear, your next weapon skill is upgraded. And make those upgraded skills 30 potency higher and look badass. For example, make Tifa's dolphin uppercut part of it.

This is actually a good point imo and I think that maybe we could get a big hitter that you build up to through landing positionals.
So you build up to it with positionals instead of crits.

Or just do it for Forbidden Chakra, it'd make it less RNG too.

The problem with your idea here is that I'm pretty convinced that positionals are dead come 6.0. I don't want them to go, but the job's history suggests that they will.

Positionals have regularly been de-emphasized on the job with every expansion. We're where we are at right now because of SE's efforts to eliminate whatever pain points the community brings up, and for better or worse, positionals are regularly proposed to go the way of GL. As things stand, the job really does just have ONE meaningful positional, and given SE's own track record on doubling down with some honestly bad choices with the job for the past six years, I'm not exactly brimming with optimism for what comes next.

While I absolutely agree that positionals should be more meaningful, for Monk and for EVERY job that has them, players already complain about how hard they are to land under duress, and SE has shown that they would prefer to sacrifice meaningful moment-to-moment gameplay (even something as simple as moving a little to the left or right of an arbitrary, clearly marked part of a circle surrounding a mob) in order to try and appease people who don't even main ANY given role in the game.

Accessibility trumps everything in FFXIV, and people screech about being gatekept by basic gameplay mechanics all the time despite this. I know people who have dropped DRG entirely because they hated "being punished" for missing positionals. I know people who refuse to play BLM because dropping Enochian feels like "punishment." I've even heard people complain about NIN's bunny-no-jutsu and having their haste fall off. These are the people for whom SE made GL a trait, rather than something to manage.

"Locking" fancier animations AND greater potency behind properly landing positionals/putting some effort into your time with the game just seems to be asking for the same complaints here.

[Sqwall]

If the Devs wanted to they could easily implemented something like Tifa style gameplay from FF7:R. That to me was literally what monk should be at this point in the long history of FF14.

I quit playing as Cloud and just went all in with Tifa because it REALLY reminded me of Monk from FF14. How fluid Tifa was in getting in combat, keeping your buffs up for max damage, and the incredible satisfaction of finishers.

LoL It felt like I was playing Killer Instinct