Controversioal Changes to Monk

[Jirah]

snip (oh boy)

Disagree completely and once again I do not approve of jobs shrinking down to a base than to be a complete job. And yet again MCH isn’t some pioneer of job innovation it was a reduction to get to the drawing board and most of its mechanics were never added on just removed. And I’d hardly call it’s current incantation remotely comparable to any job in the game 1-2-3, OGCD weave is all MCH has but I’ve argued this to death and of course it makes sense MCH “mains” want MNK to be simpler as they requested this for SMN, SCH, BRD, AST and even DRK despite it already getting a half baked reduction too.

long story short, don’t pray for jobs to get easier cuz keeping a dot up is too hard, pray to be better players. if MNK has any MCH rework it would be harmless than beneficial more so since it’s what MNK mains detest the most as seen here with the ridiculous removal of positional

[dezzmont]

Disagree completely

Way to not read what I actually wrote because I literally said "I don't think the MCH change is that good" like 3 times in that post and don't think it was ultimately a great rework save for actually giving MCH highpoints.

The interesting thing to take away from MCH is that highpoints for your job, the gamefeel of it, is more important than its actual mechanical depth for success, but if you just add that the job feels totally hollow. Not that MCH is actually a good job right now, which is why I was literally responding to someone saying "I hope we get a MCH style rework" with "I actually kinda don't, but here is what MCH did that made it more popular despite being a kinda hollow job and why that matters looking at Monk and its future."

But language is imprecise and nuance is hard to convey over text, and threading the needle of 'Listen I get the job shouldn't be dumbed down but you realize its awful and the fact there are so many outsider complaints shows there are actual serious problems with the job, even if a lot of the things they specifically ask for don't make sense' is hard.

[Kolsykol]

The only place I'd agree that positionals should be removed is out in the open world.

Playing MNK in the Bozja raids tho was especially boring because of no positionals.
The positionals + mechanics is part of what makes it fun.

[Jirah]

The only place I'd agree that positionals should be removed is out in the open world.

Playing MNK in the Bozja raids tho was especially boring because of no positionals.
The positionals + mechanics is part of what makes it fun.

Bozja shouldn’t even be in discussion when dissecting job potential in all honesty, like saying how WAR isn’t fun to do in GATES or some other nonsense

[Jirah]

Way to not read what I actually wrote because I literally said "I don't think the MCH change is that good" like 3 times in that post and don't think it was ultimately a great rework save for actually giving MCH highpoints.

The interesting thing to take away from MCH is that highpoints for your job, the gamefeel of it, is more important than its actual mechanical depth for success, but if you just add that the job feels totally hollow. Not that MCH is actually a good job right now, which is why I was literally responding to someone saying "I hope we get a MCH style rework" with "I actually kinda don't, but here is what MCH did that made it more popular despite being a kinda hollow job and why that matters looking at Monk and its future."

But language is imprecise and nuance is hard to convey over text, and threading the needle of 'Listen I get the job shouldn't be dumbed down but you realize its awful and the fact there are so many outsider complaints shows there are actual serious problems with the job, even if a lot of the things they specifically ask for don't make sense' is hard.

More disagreeing on the exaggeration on MCH being “really really bad” like it’s some doom job not helped by it literally being inaccessible and people just agreeing in unison and further explaining on MCH reduction being beneficial which I can’t say personally until we see how EW will expand or stagnate the job they sand blasted.

The rest is just speaking out loud more or less as I see the comparison far more often among other suggestions. I’d love to see more elaborate MNK “Reworks” again those are a joy to read

[Kolsykol]

Bozja shouldn’t even be in discussion when dissecting job potential in all honesty, like saying how WAR isn’t fun to do in GATES or some other nonsense

I agree with you I also think it's silly to bring it up, I only mentioned it because someone else brought it up.

[ssunny2008]

So let´s face it. I´m pretty sure that MNK isn´t that unpopular as some ppl claim it. There is even a side from april 2020, where we can see that all starter classes are often played. (Not saying those stats are 100% correct.)
Given to ff.logs BRD / MCH / BLM and MNK are the least played classes. And of course they are. While MNK and BLM are special anyway, the SAM + DNC is just a wombo combo in the endgame and it definately makes the content easier to bring them, which already fills 1 melee spot and normally makes BRD / MCH unneccessary. That a bunch of statics go in with 2 caster instead of 2 melees is another thing. And here we´re only talking about some current endgame logs.

I personally see any class in any given content out of savage and yes, i do see MNK´s playing their positionals and doing well. We´re millions of players and how many ppl actually complain about a full positional class or positionals overall? 1%? Maybe 2%? Who knows.
But i´m pretty convinced that those players are highly casual, don´t play the real endgame, don´t main the class anyway and don´t even want to try to play it properly. That a punching job is attracting you guys, fine... but why do you even waste your time to complain instead of learning and becoming better in the game?
The most content in FF14 is low tier as well and you can ignore positionals anyway. So why even complain about them, when you don´t want to ride savage / ultimate as MNK?!



And imagine, that the most guys just play the game and enjoy it instead of creating memes about any jobs, sitting in discord and chilling in limsa or whatever. And well, i´ve never seen any MNK main coming up like "positionals are bad". Not even any serious other melee main, because they bring atleast a bit variation to the 123 combo and even define the gap between good / bad players. (Which is a needed personal reward in any game, otherwise the feeling of "becoming better" would be not existent.)

@dezzmont
I can agree that a theme and aesthetics are a big thing in any game. But it´s still not as important as the gameplay is. A lot of games out there shows that. Anthem is a perfect example where the content, gameplay and rewards failed, but it´s a graphical masterpiece in all way. Only that flying aspect was awesome when we talk about gameplay there.
On the other hand we´ve a bunch of old games which are still played and loved. Yeah, some kind of nostalgic might be in there, but no real gamer cares about a bunch of pixels or lack of graphical bombardements when the gameplay is fun, character variations a thing or whatever.
What if MNK gets a better graphical feedback, but stays like it is? Would you play it? Would you enjoy it? Or are positionals still an issue for the most?


So please, whoever of you "pls change class X for whatever reasons guys" read this, stop complain about personal issues. A development issue like GL + cutszene, completely broken classes or content which can´t be done with class Y is something different than changing core aspects of classes, because you just don´t want to play it like that.
This isn´t just another FF series game too. It´s a MMORPG. We´ve already lost so many RPG aspects over the years and all what such complaints do, is to kill the last unique features in any class you complain about. We´ve seen this with too many classes already, just because 1 button clicks for high end DPS seems to be so exciting.

And seriously... maybe just accept that you guys aren´t those brilliant gamers instead of complaining about anything, if that´s the case. Asking to evolve classes is one thing, but getting ride of years old basic mechanics to cater ingorance, lazyness or just bad plays? Common... pretty sure the most players would´ve even more fun in the game, if they would read their skills and get used to the classes instead of random button smashing. Not any class is hard to learn and only savage content force some mechanic adaptive gameplay. Just go to a dummy and practice.
I´ve seen more than enough trash players practicing, evolving and enjoying the game far more and such permanent complaints like "bs gameplay, unfair content, whatever" stopped immediately. One of them is even my better half. We all started once and not every class is made for everyone anyway.

[Jirah]

Snip

If u can juggle some words around, id agree with this statement partially. As of 5.56 and most likely 6.0 mastering the job is not required nothing in the game will eat u alive if u havent learned your job unless, to the point even healers can relax abit and tanks dont have nearly as much responsibility as the used to.

Having said this , i Cannot STAND the trend of praying upon jobs that have "complex kits" and wishing for them to be easier rather than idk...practicing. I sucked as MNK and did unsynced content to try to learn and master it and i did (still have issues keeping twins up from fight to fight but ive learned the job) same with SAM as postionals and melee were new to me as i was seeking a new job after MCH got its lobotomy. Same with learning astos cards and its effects like spread and hold. and with MCH in SB when my dps was horrid in Deltascape and learned i was doing my rotation wrong, forgetting ammo, and ogcds, letting wildfire rot, not using FT or Hotshot ect. Point is the learning process is awesome.

BRD , SMN, MNK, and i see a few Sam reduction requests too, disgust me. You should never want a job to be reduced because its too hard. Job issues should be if they are horribly OP, or underpowered. or the kit is; unintuitive, incomplete , isnt functional or isnt fun. If they do apply by all means vent ur concerns, but its usually just "remove dots, remove egi, remove postionals, Tsubame-gaeshi ruined sam, and remove the dot no one uses it anyways"

Not saying MNK is perfect, it has issues but its postionals isnt the biggest concern

[dezzmont]

What if MNK gets a better graphical feedback, but stays like it is? Would you play it? Or are positionals still an issue for the most?

I would not play monk with an update alone, but not because of positional abilities. Positionals as a pain point for monk are a biiiiit of a false problem. They aren't really that important and when they are you have True North.

The overall issue with Monk is that too many of its elements were punishing. Not CHALLENGING. Punishing, the job is all stick, no carrot. The job needs 'mechanical moneyshots' that makes its internal structure more obvious and execution more rewarding. DPS is not a reward, the game actively hides it (and thus the number one complaint I hear about monk is "I don't know if I am even doing damage...").

The obvious point of comparison is Samurai, because of how similar the jobs are: Melee job that hits positionals over a somewhat non-standard combo weaving oGCDs in for extra damage or self buffs that actually change what you are trying to do.

But Samurai gets a lot more love, and is is easier to be a good SAM. Not because its vastly simpler (they don't compare directly very for many reasons, mainly being 'more effects that alter core rotation vs a more fluid core rotation), but because the job has good built in rewards into its rotation that make it REALLY clear what you are trying to accomplish.

Unlike most newbie monks, most newbie Samurai actually learn to hit their positional because Kenki forces you to do it to cast your abilities, and most samurai learn to do their rotation correctly because you get your Iaijutsu doing it. Lacking these feedback elements doesn't make Monk a 'harder class' and adding them wouldn't make it 'more casual.

This isn't to say "Monk should become Sam 2.0" as much as "You can look at other jobs, see common threads among popular ones, and look and see if they can be added to jobs that are struggling or people are bouncing off of." A Chakra on positional hits while your buff and debuff are up would both make Monk 'harder' (If you miss any one of those 3 you lose more DPS), but also easier (its now WAY easier to 'see' when you mess up on monk, just like when you over-write an Iaijutsu seal on SAM), and more engaging for newer players ("If I do these things I get this really cool attack I actively want to use!"). That still is fairly different than Sam but incorporates its design strengths of using the meter mechanic as a feedback tool.

TL;DR: Monk really doesn't need further difficulty reduction. It needs things in its rotation that say 'Good job, you did your rotation' and gives you something for it. Positionals are fine (if probably annoying to the encounter designers), and in fact probably need to be emphasized more, ironically, to help make them easier.

[IruruCece]

The overall issue with Monk is that too many of its elements were punishing. Not CHALLENGING. Punishing, the job is all stick, no carrot.

No.

The math has repeatedly showed that missing all positionals EXCEPT for Bootshine resulted in a negligible DPS loss. So, ignoring the vast majority of your positionals wasn't punishing for the vast majority of players. And with True North and Riddle of Earth, especially earlier in Shadowbringers' patch cycle, you could completely ignore ALL positionals without ANY penalty whatsoever for a shocking amount of time.

If, for whatever reason, you're missing BOOTSHINE's positional requirement, especially on current patch Monk, the problem here is decidedly not with the existence of positionals.

Chakra RNG has been a problem for the job since 2.0, and that still didn't stop Monk from being one of the top DPS jobs in Shadowbringers. It parses extremely well, arguably it has since late Heavensward. So having bad chakra rng is hardly a punishment, the best Monk players in endgame content today still outperform most other DPS jobs despite that factor being outside their control.

GL loss was the closest thing to "punishment" the job threw at players, and to be frank, if you were dropping GL at any point before a cutscene completely robbed control of the encounter away from you, you were either dead, or actually bad at the job. Straight up. GL maintenance was made practically braindead, to the point where if you were willing to keep tapping a button, you could preserve the buff through entire dungeons, to say nothing about proper raids. We had a STUPID amount of our kit dedicated to preserving that buff in just about any circumstance so long as we had active control of our characters. The problem with GL was that SE has regularly sought to place spectacle before everything else, and never considered that aspect one bit when "fixing" Monk for Shadowbringers.

We should have gotten something that rewarded aggressive Monks for maintaining GL over a set period of time, even if that something was as simple as "press this, get max GL again and do some ogcd damage." Instead, we got Anatman, which SE's own encounter design actively made worthless, and when we tried to squeeze blood from that worthless stone, they nerfed it in response. If there was anything "punishing" about Monk, it was SE's insistence that we shouldn't be allowed to quickly "build up" to full speed, and that we had to "build up" to full speed after every bloody mid-fight cutscene they hamhandedly inserted into the game. There were better solutions, and they failed to try a single one of them.