Controversioal Changes to Monk

[Navnav]

If anyone thnks positionals are equal to casting, then you have a warped viewpoint and seriously can't back up your point. Positionals are a relic from the past end of. Just because this game has them it does mean that they are defining features of a melee class... It's kinda sad how defensive a lot of players on the forums get over such a arbitrary design. It does NOT add complexity, it doesn't mean you are a skillful gamer, stop reaching, it's getting silly now.

[acceleratedben]

If anyone thnks positionals are equal to casting, then you have a warped viewpoint and seriously can't back up your point. Positionals are a relic from the past end of. Just because this game has them it does mean that they are defining features of a melee class... It's kinda sad how defensive a lot of players on the forums get over such a arbitrary design. It does NOT add complexity, it doesn't mean you are a skillful gamer, stop reaching, it's getting silly now.

Hot take for you to decide what attributes to skill considering you didn't complete a single savage/ultimate.

Questionable take aside, positionals definitely do add depth. if you're too lazy to do them, just play another job, there is a reason we got 16 different ones.

"Then why does TN/ROE exist?"
Because it lets them create more interesting mechanics where they don't have to adjust for melees being able to hit positionals to protect the balancing obsession this game has.

I would also be interested to know where the "it's a relic from the past" argument comes from, i've seen it thrown around left and right without any clarification why exactly that would be the case. (and almost always from people who haven't even touched gameplay content that isn't on the level of an afk idle game)

[Powercow]

Heals are a relic from the past end of. Just because this game has them it does mean that they are defining features of a healer class... It's kinda sad how defensive a lot of players on the forums get over such a arbitrary design. It does NOT add complexity, it doesn't mean you are a skillful gamer, stop reaching, it's getting silly now.

Defensives are a relic from the past end of. Just because this game has them it does mean that they are defining features of a tank class... It's kinda sad how defensive a lot of players on the forums get over such a arbitrary design. It does NOT add complexity, it doesn't mean you are a skillful gamer, stop reaching, it's getting silly now.

Cast times are a relic from the past end of. Just because this game has them it does mean that they are defining features of a caster class... It's kinda sad how defensive a lot of players on the forums get over such a arbitrary design. It does NOT add complexity, it doesn't mean you are a skillful gamer, stop reaching, it's getting silly now.

Procs are a relic from the past end of. Just because this game has them it does mean that they are defining features of a ranged class... It's kinda sad how defensive a lot of players on the forums get over such a arbitrary design. It does NOT add complexity, it doesn't mean you are a skillful gamer, stop reaching, it's getting silly now.

Hotkeys are a relic from the past end of. Just because this game has them it does mean that they are defining features of a class... It's kinda sad how defensive a lot of players on the forums get over such a arbitrary design. It does NOT add complexity, it doesn't mean you are a skillful gamer, stop reaching, it's getting silly now.

Stats are a relic from the past end of. Just because this game has them it does mean that they are defining features of a class... It's kinda sad how defensive a lot of players on the forums get over such a arbitrary design. It does NOT add complexity, it doesn't mean you are a skillful gamer, stop reaching, it's getting silly now.

Man, those really are some hot takes.

[Navnav]

I'm going to bow outta this one. It is obvious I am not dealing with normal people, if they think removing some arbitrary positional requirements are the same as removing hotkeys.

Simply blown away by the way some players think on these boards...

[IruruCece]

I'm going to bow outta this one. It is obvious I am not dealing with normal people, if they think removing some arbitrary positional requirements are the same as removing hotkeys.

Simply blown away by the way some players think on these boards...

It's far, far more abnormal to accuse other people of brain problems because they disagree with your opinions about a job you don't even main.

"Normal" people play the jobs that match their preferences and have fun with what they like.

Potency is a intangible measure and isn’t a good counterclaim for removing anything for the sake of a invisible number that can mean anything, but I agree with your claim. Jobs have their fans and their identity and shouldn’t be smothered for the sake of broad appeal, ie Dark knight or Machinist which are sadly positive examples of this.

MNK May have its identity but push comes to shove, broad appeal will always be the victor at the expense of its soul. If MNK is remade in a drastic way that is dense it’ll get attention and fans will overshadow the old mains.

This argument gets trotted out time after time, even when the actual player counts in endgame content doesn't remotely agree with it.

Monk has been simplified over the course the Shadowbringers, from start to end, and that hasn't lead to more people taking Monk into Ultimates or Savages. Simplification did not increase the appeal in that regard, and if anything, the numbers of people taking Monks into high-end content have dropped down further. At best, we've had an increase in the number of players who "kinda like the aesthetic" of the job but don't actually take it anywhere challenging hop onto the forums with surprisingly regularity saying "this one neat trick" to make the job more popular.

The bottom line is that despite all the changes, Monk is one of the higher performing DPS in the game. It's simpler than ever to play. It offers a good buff to other players in a wide variety of comps. Yet it still is one of the least played end-game jobs. Complexity isn't the problem here, and neither is performance.

Frankly, I've seen a lot of people just give up on it because SE more or less has given up on the job as we knew it, and the GL removal is a blood-soaked band-aid on a festering, gaping chest wound of problems that have built up over every single expansion since vanilla. Their insistence on "cool" unskippable cutscenes in the middle of boss fights practically confirms that the developers never once even considered how that would affect Monk until after the fact, and GL's removal is a loud, unprompted "Oops."

Removing positionals might appeal to the casual player on paper, but we already know that every other change meant to do that has roundly failed to accomplish that goal in practice.

[Jirah]

If anyone thnks positionals are equal to casting, then you have a warped viewpoint and seriously can't back up your point. Positionals are a relic from the past end of. Just because this game has them it does mean that they are defining features of a melee class... It's kinda sad how defensive a lot of players on the forums get over such a arbitrary design. It does NOT add complexity, it doesn't mean you are a skillful gamer, stop reaching, it's getting silly now.

I know I’m assertive on my hot takes, but this is just condescending. Replace positionals with the word “RNG (DNC)” “Procs (RDM)” “Cast bars (BLM)” “Dots (SMN/BRD)” “Rotation (MCH)” it’s not MNK Stand out trait true and a valid argument could’ve been made to say the lack their of, but here we are instead...

I don’t think it’s “sad” I think it’s fine, positionals aren’t complex, no one ever said anything about skillful gamers, this is slowly turning into a You problem in all honesty. Play other jobs, I can assure you MNK won’t be better without them, standing still spamming 1-2-3 isn’t fun and it would be a lesser DRG, unless you take issue with their positionals too.

[Navnav]

I know I’m assertive on my hot takes, but this is just condescending. Replace positionals with the word “RNG (DNC)” “Procs (RDM)” “Cast bars (BLM)” “Dots (SMN/BRD)” “Rotation (MCH)” it’s not MNK Stand out trait true and a valid argument could’ve been made to say the lack their of, but here we are instead...

I don’t think it’s “sad” I think it’s fine, positionals aren’t complex, no one ever said anything about skillful gamers, this is slowly turning into a You problem in all honesty. Play other jobs, I can assure you MNK won’t be better without them, standing still spamming 1-2-3 isn’t fun and it would be a lesser DRG, unless you take issue with their positionals too.

I have no problem at all.
Being forced to move a yalm to the left or right for 30 potency is hardly engaging gameplay. I do play Bozja and can honestly say I am happy without them and do not miss them in the slightest. RNG, Procs, Dots and casts can all be found in other MMOs, but you know what you struggle to find in the abundance that FF has? Positionals... Everyone gets it, even square are understanding now that they are not actually an engaging mechanic at all. It's like a lot of players that post on the forums have never played another MMO and have no idea how a melee can actually be fun without positionals, its crazy lol.

I mean no offence by that, but honestly find it astonishing how players here are so diehard over moving left and right, something you can do freely anyway. When I play other MMORPGS, I move around like a madman, that is my jigg. Hate to be forced to do it though, and when some absolute mongo is insistent on spinning the boss, the last thing I want to hear is "The content doesn't matter, just take the dps loss". That one argument you hear so much is an admition of a failed mechanic.

[ssunny2008]

It's like a lot of players that post on the forums have never played another MMO and have no idea how a melee can actually be fun without positionals, its crazy lol.

Sounds more like you´ve never played another MMO or are not able to compare them properly.

Action - MMO´s have a complete different gameplay and even there you sometimes fight skills with a "from behind effect". But that positionals are not that big thing there is obvious. You´ve to target the enemy by yourself and the overall gameplay is much faster.

Comparable trinity MMO´s like SWTOR or WoW are slightly different too. Classes have way more utility options and everyone in the party has mostly do way more mechanically wise. You´ve a rotation to play, but overall it´s not 123 with a 2-2,5s GCD as it is in FF14. You´ve 1,5s or even less. On top you´ve to take care about your ressource management, off gcd´s aren´t a big thing, but priority-skills are and gapcloser are GCD´s too.
This last in a way faster and utility-based combat design meanwhile you HAVE to take care of ressources. (Which is not a real thing in FF14 anymore.)

That said, classes in FF14 have a bit but are overall way to easy to play. SE´s whole balancing works like Jirah mentioned. Procc gameplay on RDPS, Casts + Dots on Mages and therefore positionals on melees. This together with a braindead 123 rotation. And next to NIN with his mudra, DRG with the jumps or SAM with Kenki + Midare, MNK has nothing but positionals.
So if anything, MNK needs something on top on his positionals again since they took GL away.


I´ll never get why so many mighty casuals, who don´t even play the endgame, come up like "pls change the class for my own preference."
You guys can play any content out of savage without even care about positionals in any way. Man yesterday i do even had a lvl 80 BLM casting fire into trashpulls. We needed 30mins for matoya´s, who cares?!

Stop destroying classes because you´re not willing to learn them properly and just like some punshing aesthetics. It´s ridiculous.

[Mikey_R]

Just because YOU don't find it engaging, doesn't mean others don't. Knowing fight mechanics is key to doing well with positionals, the foresight of knowing a boss is going to do this, so I should position myself here to maximise uptime. The boss is facing away from the tank for a mechanic, how can I reposition myself to account for the boss turning back to move as little as possible etc.

Doing positionals is more than just moving a little left and a little right. The serious melee players will be thinking ahead, which sounds alot like another job that we have...oh yes, Black Mage. Black Mage relies heavily on standing still and having forethought into what they do and how they place themselves, it is the same for melee.

Also, just because other MMOs don't have positionals, doesn't mean they are automatically bad. Granted, I haven't played other MMOs, however, how many of them actually had positionals and later removed them? From my limited knowledge, it is zero, so it really isn't a fair comparison.

[Ardour]

I like monk being positional heavy and I would hate to see it removed since it's always been a core part of the job and it fits the fantasy of monks being agile and maneuverable fighters.

That being said, the idea that ALL melee jobs MUST have positionals in order to be satisfying is really weird to me. As others have pointed out, melee classes in other MMOs have often had plenty of depth without any positional requirements whatsoever. The need to maintain melee uptime and perform mechanics while staying within a hair's breadth of the boss is still a unique challenge for melee that sets them apart from other roles, even with 0 positionals. There is also really no reason that melee jobs can't have more randomized procs or other features that would add a higher level of complexity to their rotation, either in place of positionals or in conjunction with them.

I would enjoy seeing at least 1 melee job without positionals in the future, just to have it as an option for the players who want it. Yes True North would be an irrelevant role action for that job, but Lucid Dreaming is already irrelevant for BLM outside of niche cases. I think role actions should exist solely to fill a need for the jobs that need them, rather than forcing all jobs of a certain role to play in the same way.