Controversioal Changes to Monk

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Honesty GL should just lost one stack instead of everything before they decided to scrap it

That is... A great idea...I feel like a dummy now.. I never thought of that before... >.>;

[SpeckledBurd]

That is... A great idea...I feel like a dummy now.. I never thought of that before... >.>;

It's one of many ideas that have been recommended repeatedly over the last several years. I recall people suggesting it in Heavensward.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

It's one of many ideas that have been recommended repeatedly over the last several years. I recall people suggesting it in Heavensward.

So I read.. noted... I made a further edit to my earlier post on Page 10, for this. My thanks, Jirah and SpeckledBurd.

[Sooru]

There are two classes which to me are aesthetically great, but the mechanical elements of the class makes...

Removing positionals is a dumb idea. Monk's individuality from other classes is that it's main rotation is based around positionals. If you remove positionals then Monk would become very boring to play and lose it's identity. Even if you kept only bootshine/dragon kick positionals, all that would do is that you would only need to hit 1 positional (bootshine) as missing dragon kick would not kill your DPS by a lot. Sure, you would still try to hit it, but most of the time as long as you are behind the boss to hit bootshine you'd be fine.

Most players that hate positionals do not like positionals as a concept, period. It's not that they hate Monk, but rather, that they hate positionals. There are plenty of jobs that do not have any positionals, or if they do, not to the extent of Monk. Go play those jobs if you hate positionals. Killing Monk's identity because you want to please the players that do not play Monk is silly. The bigger issue is that most bosses nowadays ignore aggro for certain attacks and like to spin around for little to no reason, which makes a Monk's life harder. That's why Monk got Riddle of Earth and True North, to alleviate this problem.

Anatman definitely needs some changes, but making it an ability that does damage doesn't make much sense to me. I think if it was changed to an ability that worked similarly to Perfect Balance (removed form requirements) but also removed positional requirements (akin to True North), it would be fine and would probably fit in nicer to the opener/create smoother rotations. However, I would reduce it's duration to 15 seconds, and double it's cooldown from 60s to 120s if that were to happen, as it would otherwise create a state of constantly swapping between Perfect Balance/True North and Anatman.

Another QoL change would be to decrease the duration of Demolish by 3 seconds (to 15) but increase the damage it dealt per tick to match it's current damage. That way Demolish wouldn't be procced every 3 rotations and it would make Monk's rotations shift only between rear (Bootshine, True Strike, Demolish) and flank (Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, Snap Punch) instead of constantly mixing and matching due to the way Demolish's duration interacts with the GCD timers.

I would also perhaps have Fists of Earth make the player immune to stuns/binds (but not knockbacks as it would defeat the point of having Arm's Length). Perhaps make this tied to the Enhanced Fists of Fire trait (renamed to Enhanced Fists). With that said, I would perhaps make Fists of Wind ignore slow/heavy effects to give it more of a niche use, and again maybe tie it to the Enhanced Fists trait.

Lastly I would consider making Form Shift an oGCD ability but frankly I think it's niche (opener/downtime prep) is fine as it is.

[Mikey_R]

Anatman definitely needs some changes, but making it an ability that does damage doesn't make much sense to me. I think if it was changed to an ability that worked similarly to Perfect Balance (removed form requirements) but also removed positional requirements (akin to True North), it would be fine and would probably fit in nicer to the opener/create smoother rotations. However, I would reduce it's duration to 15 seconds, and double it's cooldown from 60s to 120s if that were to happen, as it would otherwise create a state of constantly swapping between Perfect Balance/True North and Anatman.

Giving monk ANOTHER way to ignore positionals is just silly in my opinion. This is a job that is meant to rely on them so giving them so many ways to ignore it points to the idea that, maybe they shouldn't be there in the first place. The 3 stacks of RoE and 2 stacks of TN are already more than they should probably have and you will always have multiple options available for any given moment.

Another QoL change would be to decrease the duration of Demolish by 3 seconds (to 15) but increase the damage it dealt per tick to match it's current damage. That way Demolish wouldn't be procced every 3 rotations and it would make Monk's rotations shift only between rear (Bootshine, True Strike, Demolish) and flank (Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, Snap Punch) instead of constantly mixing and matching due to the way Demolish's duration interacts with the GCD timers.

The 'misalignment' of emolish and Twin Snakes is what makes the rotation more interesting in my opinion, and lining them all up won't enhance the gameplay.

I would also perhaps have Fists of Earth make the player immune to stuns/binds (but not knockbacks as it would defeat the point of having Arm's Length). Perhaps make this tied to the Enhanced Fists of Fire trait (renamed to Enhanced Fists). With that said, I would perhaps make Fists of Wind ignore slow/heavy effects to give it more of a niche use, and again maybe tie it to the Enhanced Fists trait.

While it sounds like a good idea, there are very few fights that stun/bind/slow/heavy in any content that it would just be redundant. Add on to the fact you never see these debuffs unless you are doing something wrong nd getting hit, or, if they are intended, it will just bypass the immunity anyway. The Fists are just redundant and no matter what you do to them, the only one that will matter will be the one that gives you the most damage.

Lastly I would consider making Form Shift an oGCD ability but frankly I think it's niche (opener/downtime prep) is fine as it is.

The original goal behind Form Sift was for favourable openers and helping to keep GL after downtime. It was a very powerful tool and while it just gives us formless fist now, it still fulfils it's role. By making it oGCD, you just open up the potential for getting more Leaden Fist Bootshines in and then you have to start asking about cooldowns and then it either becomes useless as a downtime tool as it's cooldown is too long or yo just skip your rotation to do Bootshines. Keeping it on the GCD is the best thing for it.

[Sooru]

Giving monk ANOTHER way to ignore positionals is just silly in my opinion...

I can understand this sentiment but again that's why I would increase it's cooldown and reduce it's duration, so that it cannot be constantly rotated between Perfect Balance and True North with minimal downtime. I don't think this has to necessarily be the direction it takes but I do think it's better than just having it be an ability that extends twin snakes while nothing is going on (it seems very pointless). I would much rather have another chance to ignore positionals than an ability that I'm never going to use at all. If Anatman was unlocked earlier perhaps it could be justifiable as it is now, but it being gated by lvl 78 seems counterproductive. What would you propose they change about Anatman instead?

The 'misalignment' of emolish and Twin Snakes is what makes the rotation more interesting in my opinion, and lining them all up won't enhance the gameplay.

To you it might make it more interesting, but what do you mean by "enhance"? If your definition of enhance is improve the experience then that would be very subjective, as having smooth rotations with positionals that line up with each other will be preferred by players that like more streamlined gameplay, whereas this "bumpy" rotation that has you alternate between Demolish and Snap Punch every 3 rotations instead of every 2 like Bootshine & Dragon Kick, as well as True Strike & Twin Snakes, will be preferred by other players that like less intuitive and more fluctuating gameplay. I personally don't really mind the way it is now but I would certainly prefer it if it was the way I suggested.

While it sounds like a good idea, there are very few fights that stun/bind/slow/heavy in any content that it would just be redundant...

What would you change about the Fists then? Just leave them as is and have 2 of them never be used meaningfully? Fists of Earth, outside of low lvl content where you're forced to use it, I've only seen used if your tank dies and you happen to pick up aggro, at which point if you don't have Riddle of Earth, Bloodbath and Arm's Length, chances are you Fists of Earth won't be making a difference anyways. Fists of Wind is pretty much a "move around cities faster" button, and it's not even that much of a difference. Buffing their numbers doesn't seem healthy at all, so I guess just remove them entirely? In which case why not just give Fists of Fire the Greased Lightning treatment and make it a permanent trait?

The original goal behind Form Sift was for favourable openers and helping to keep GL after downtime...

Yeah like I said I think it's fine as it is but having it be oGCD like you yourself said could open up more variety in combos where you weave in Form Shifted Bootshines instead of, say, True Strikes and Snap Punches.

[Mikey_R]

I can understand this sentiment but again that's why I would increase it's cooldown and reduce it's duration, so that it cannot be constantly rotated between Perfect Balance and True North with minimal downtime....

This is assuming Anatman stays, or, if they have more ideas for Monk in EW that could give Anatman a use. However, if they don't give it another use that isn't just ignoring positionals number 3, then I do think it should just be scrapped.

To you it might make it more interesting, but what do you mean by "enhance"?...

Enhance was probably the wrong word, granted, however, if you actually put your suggestion of rotating demolish to every 2, it wouldn't line up. AT the most basic level, the first thing you will do is get Twin Snakes up, then Demolish, flank, rear, next would be True, Snap, rear, flank and repeat. Even after Perfect Balance, you will always Twin Snakes > Demolish. The only time it could potentially line up is during downtime where you have a chance to use Anatman, so you wouldn't need to refresh twin snakes and therefore start on true strike. AT least with them being staggered, you have the chance that the positionals line up.

What would you change about the Fists then? ... so I guess just remove them entirely? In which case why not just give Fists of Fire the Greased Lightning treatment and make it a permanent trait?

Yes, removing them entirely. If they have to stay, they could just be weaker versions of their riddles, so Fists of Fire could be a 10% damage increase for 20 seconds, upgraded to Riddle of Fire at 68. Fists of Earth could either be starting as a defensive buff for a period and gains the true north property on upgrading to Riddle of Earth, or vice versa. Fists of wind could be a trait that increases movement speed, just like Ninjas have Fleet of Foot. Having quicker movement speed could also help with popsitioning correctly for positionals.

Yeah like I said I think it's fine as it is but having it be oGCD like you yourself said could open up more variety in combos where you weave in Form Shifted Bootshines instead of, say, True Strikes and Snap Punches.

And the pure power behing Leaden Bootshine is one of the issues with Monk. Granted, it could be changed so that Leaden Fist isn't so overbearing, however, you also have the whole misalignment issue. Twin and Demolish is timed to be used after a certain number of GCDs, using Form Shift as an oGCD would then misalign them. There are just too many issues that would need resolving (in my opinion) to make it feasible.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Removing positionals is a dumb idea.

While I do sort of agree with you, and every other person, that has made this point...

Monk's individuality from other classes is that it's main rotation is based around positionals.

I have a slight disagreement with that... It is true that Monk has positional requirements on almost every action, and no other class does, but I feel like what makes the Monk's rotation different from any other class, in a good way, is the "forms" and "form shifts"; which makes the Monk's rotations one of the least rigid and straight-forward, out of all of the subclasses, and one of the best rotation designs, in my opinion.
I would love it if Monks' form and form shift rotations had even more variation and options than what it already does, at that.

If you remove positionals then Monk would become very boring to play and lose it's identity.

I also disagree with that, as well... the subclass identity of Monk is far more about high attack speed, Greased Lightning, the form-based combos and form shift rotation, and Chakra, such as the fourteen Chakra of light and darkness, than positional requirements.
I am not against the positional requirements, but I think that it is more important for the Monk subclass to have things like the original(non-trait) Greased Lightning, that has no issues and functions well, more variation and options in the rotations, as I find the Monk's form and form shift style combos and rotation to the most fun part of the subclass, along with its speed, and for the Chakra resource to be much less dull, perhaps based more(consider by a large amount) off of the chakra lore and HeavensWard Monk story...

I am sure that other Monk players find this to annoy, as much as I do... The Chakra resource is FIVE. What about seven? what about fourteen? Why does the Chakra resource very not much resemble the Chakra lore from the Monk story? I would love to see the Chakra resource expanded and made more of interest, based off of the fourteen Chakra of light and darkness.

Most players that hate positionals do not like positionals as a concept, period. It's not that they hate Monk, but rather, that they hate positionals. [...]Killing Monk's identity because you want to please the players that do not play Monk is silly.[...]

I do agree with both of these statements, though... people that hate Positional requirements tend to have a issue with said requirements on Dragoon and Samurai, as well. that is for certain not exclusive to Monk... While.. in the case of the latter, I would use a much less kind word than "silly".

Another QoL change would be to decrease the duration of Demolish by 3 seconds (to 15) but increase the damage it dealt per tick to match it's current damage.

Last, I would rather see the duration of Demolish have a increase, up to 30 seconds, and then for the Monk to have two other DoTs, and the Monk rotates the upkeep of three DoTs between the rotation of direct attacks. It may or may not be controversial, but I prefer to play Skill Speed Monk, so I would like to see Monk use more DoTs, to go with the already fast speed of Greased Lightning, and compliment the benefits of Skill Speed.

[Sooru]

I have a slight disagreement with that... It is true that Monk has positional requirements on almost every action, and no other class does, but I feel like what makes the Monk's rotation different from any other class, in a good way, is the "forms" and "form shifts"; which makes the Monk's rotations one of the least rigid and straight-forward, out of all of the subclasses, and one of the best rotation designs, in my opinion.
I would love it if Monks' form and form shift rotations had even more variation and options than what it already does, at that.

You're right, Monk's core identity does come more from the form based gameplay; the point I was trying to make was that removing the positionals doesn't accomplish anything other than remove punishment for "bad" positioning, which really is just reducing both the skill floor and skill ceiling of the job for no reason.

I also disagree with that, as well... the subclass identity of Monk is far more about high attack speed, Greased Lightning, the form-based combos and form shift rotation, and Chakra, such as the fourteen Chakra of light and darkness, than positional requirements...

I think that having your damage be reduced because of forced downtime in fights is silly, which is why the original Greased Lightning had to go. I would definitely like to see more depth to the Chakra system however. Perhaps increase the Chakra to 7, and once you reach 7 and use The Forbidden Chakra/Enlightenment, it changes the "type" of your Chakra. So for example, have 7 light chakra by default, and then change to the 7 dark chakra by using Forbidden Chakra/Enlightenment. Every time you change you gain a temporary buff depending on what type of chakra you change to. Perhaps it doesn't have to work like this entirely, if at all, but definitely some added depth would be welcome.

I do agree with both of these statements, though... people that hate Positional requirements tend to have a issue with said requirements on Dragoon and Samurai, as well. that is for certain not exclusive to Monk... While.. in the case of the latter, I would use a much less kind word than "silly".

I agree, my point was that if people already have a problem with positionals with Dragoon and Samurai, they probably despise Monk with a passion.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

I think that having your damage be reduced because of forced downtime in fights is silly, which is why the original Greased Lightning had to go.

Correct. it was a issue, if not THE issue, and the reason why Monk now has a new trait... If it would interest you, I did post a concept that I had theory-craft, about a way to fix the original Greased Lightning, to solve the most big issue, plus some other ideas of my own, over on page 10...
You can take a look at it, if you want.

I would definitely like to see more depth to the Chakra system however. Perhaps increase the Chakra to 7, and once you reach 7 and use The Forbidden Chakra/Enlightenment, it changes the "type" of your Chakra. So for example, have 7 light chakra by default, and then change to the 7 dark chakra by using Forbidden Chakra/Enlightenment. Every time you change you gain a temporary buff depending on what type of chakra you change to. Perhaps it doesn't have to work like this entirely, if at all, but definitely some added depth would be welcome.

I have yet to theory-craft my own concept for a expanded Chakra resource system, to be honest...
I do like the initial read of your concept, though. It looks good.

What would you change about the Fists then? Just leave them as is and have 2 of them never be used meaningfully? Fists of Earth, outside of low lvl content where you're forced to use it, I've only seen used if your tank dies and you happen to pick up aggro, at which point if you don't have Riddle of Earth, Bloodbath and Arm's Length, chances are you Fists of Earth won't be making a difference anyways. Fists of Wind is pretty much a "move around cities faster" button, and it's not even that much of a difference. Buffing their numbers doesn't seem healthy at all, so I guess just remove them entirely? In which case why not just give Fists of Fire the Greased Lightning treatment and make it a permanent trait?

Alright, now for the paragraphs... To be blunt, and honest, I would delete all three Fists of actions, and both Riddle of actions, as I do not remember any where in the identity of FFXIV Monk being "elemental brawler", so the existence of these three magic actions and two riddle spells, makes little to me. My opinion is not shallow, though... I have ideas for how to re-work all five actions, so that Monk does not in particular just lose, may just change, and may even gain.

First, a side-note: As I did mention before... I would like to see more variation and options in the GCD rotation.

Fists of Wind: I would convert this into a action on the GCD, another punch action that requires one of the forms, and the effect of this action would be that it inflicts a DoT, and grants a passive self-buff to the Monk, that at the least would increase movement speed. This aligns with what I did post earlier... Monk with three DoTs, Demolish, the old Touch of Death returns, and this new one. Both the DoT and the buff will have a martial arts aesthetic feel, instead of magic, though.
just because I can, and for the sake of the action's animation not being lost, I had a thought that the action could keep the original animation, and just have a punch added to it, while the is-this-magic(?) energy explosion part of the action, would have a explanation in that the execution of this new WeaponSkill would have a 100% chance to grant one Chakra to the Chakra resource pool.

Fists of Earth: I would convert this into a action on the GCD, as well.. another punch action that requires the forms, and the effect of this action would resemble the original action, but in a manner that feels more like martial arts, than a magic enhancement... This action would either grant the Monk a stacks-style passive self-buff, which would guarantee that the Monk parries the next #(some number) of instances of damage taken, or a duration-style passive self-buff, where-in the Monk parries all instances of damage taken within its duration, whether that be a direct attack or indirect attack, physical or magic... There-for still damage reduction, but with a martial arts aesthetic.

Fists of Fire: this is the complex change, for balance and non-loss sake... I would still convert this into yet another punch action on the GCD, but it would have no additional effect, and just be a basic fancy punch. The catch here is that I will move its damage-increase buff to a different place, in the form of this new WeaponSkill would have a more high than the rest potency, similar to Leaden Fist, and I would "all-around-the-board" give a slight increase to the potencies of various Monk actions.(BootShine is excluded from that, it already has Leaden Fist)

And the pure power behing Leaden Bootshine is one of the issues with Monk.

Side-note: So, uh... Would this Fists of Fire re-work concept, and idea to convert its effect, of mine, perhaps.. solve that Leaden BootShine problem?

Also, another side-note: All three new WeaponSkills mentioned above, would be on the GCD, but they would also have CDs, while being WeaponSkills, these CDs there-for would be reduced by Skill Speed, as well... I have yet to theory-craft this part of my concept into alignment with the Monk rotations, though, so what those CDs would be is up for debate...

Next, the Riddle of Earth: My idea is to convert this action into a ability that costs Chakra, so that it has a explanation of being Chakra-power, rather than it seems to be a magic spell. I would leave it to still have the same effects, but make the damage reduction a little more strong, a increase from 10% to 15%, and make the Damage reduction and positional nullification separate effects, so that the Monk does not lose the damage reduction buff as fast as in just three GCDs later.
Also, I would change the name of the action/ability... The name of this new ability would be Heightened Awareness.

Last, the Riddle of Fire: as a action that is so much of a damage buff, that I have the full intent to delete, I thought a lot about how to not make this a loss for the Monk, and came to the decision that I would merge this ability into and with the re-work and expansion of the Chakra resource. I am still to theory-craft the specifics, but my thoughts are along the lines of a new Chakra Spender, similar to Enlightenment or The Forbidden Chakra, that would be a high-potency attack; of which also grants a temporary passive self-buff, that increase the Monk's damage dealt.
Also, as with Riddle of Earth, I would not carry over the "Riddle of Fire" name, and give the new action its own name.