Skill Clutter Fix Suggestion

[Jaiku]

Hey all,

Apologies in advance if someone has posted a similar suggestion before. I did not see any.

In the previous game that I played there were some issues with having too many skills and not enough buttons, unless you've been around for a couple of years.

As you can imagine, for newer players many skills would be very overwhelming, especially to people who are new to the MMORPG genre.

To fix this, they implemented a system very similar to the current macro system, but without the delay. It's called a ''custom skill chain''.

You get a screen where you place a row of skills, the first skill on that row you place on your hotbar. When you press a skill and send it to CD, the first skill disappears from the hotbar and the second skill appears, and third and fourth etc, as it returns from CD, the first skill appears again and you get to continue the rotation.

This system I believe would be a great not for only keyboard players, but also for controller players.


https://imgur.com/a/0V9lAcy

Hope this helps in any way.

Cheers,
Jaiku

[Brightamethyst]

This idea comes up fairly often (and it is a good idea) but the devs shoot it down every time.

From an interview a while back:

Q: Can we have PvE skill combos like how PvP chains the skill combos? The number of skills we have to put definitely has been lesser since Stormblood but it feels like more can be done.
Y: If that happens, skill combo would be too simple and easy. Additionally, PvP uses simplified skill combos because we want to pinpoint the players’ focus on broader perspective of battle than using the skills in order. PvE combat environment is a lot different from PvP, where players need room in between combos to respond to various situations in the raids. That’s one of the reasons why we are keeping the the way of skill sets structured.

In other perspective, the development team already saw that the number of skills are reaching the capacity in terms of system limit. Instead of increasing the number of skills, we are planning to replace the skills or alter the skill that are rarely used instead. You won’t expect the number of skills surging back in the near future.

[Recon1o6]

Given that the majority of jobs have too few buttons plus the above response from yoshida, this wont happen because its not the right way to cull excess buttons, especially when the problem is blown out of proportion by many players.

many jobs have toolkits that are bloated with redundancies (bioblaster), separate buttons that should be merged (bahamut and akhmorn) and general useless buttons (monk's stances). These are all acceptable targets to eliminate supposed excess buttons. another thing that they really ought to have done by now is make situational buttons such as making all the lazy aoe versions of single target abilities available when 3+ enemies are in range.

We have fewer buttons than ever in some jobs and the skill levelling is atrocious in most jobs. (sch not getting energy drain till 45, dark not getting aoe 2 until level 70+)

[Jirah]

Not all jobs have clutter, MCH and DNC for example have very few skills

I do want somthing along the lines of the PVP chain system but only for very very few circumstances, like RDM 1-2-3 (theirs no reason not to diverge from it) possible MCH for Similar reasons, GNB can have its lv60 1-2-3 be linked, a few aoe here and there ect

[Arrhin]

They greatly reduced the amount of skills before, to the point of oversimplification. Most classes are optimized for controller already which is in terms of skill usage, a sub optimal input already compared to M/KB (personal preference is irrelevant here). As far as most are concerned it's a good balance now between the two and most players are happy with it. Lets not dumb it down any further please.

[Elemenz]

Part 1

I just can't keep it short. These things need to be explained, so enjoy the wall.

I'm pretty new but already have issues at lvl 60 with only 12 skills as monk and a few more to come. The skills themself are easy to manage, it's having to press all buffs and conditions that's annoying.

If a game won't allow a optimised rotation without having a gaming mouse with extra bind buttons, or having to reach awkwardly for push+combos like ctrl/z/x then it's simply a bad design.

Gameplay should allow players to maintain comfortable hand positions on a basic keyboard+mouse without any extraordinary additional equipment or settings.
WASD for moving, E for strafe, 12345QRTF for 9 skills + shift = 18 skills in a comfy reach. Even adding ctrl+ actions forces the fingers off the WASD position (to reach 1+2 with the middle finger) and breaks the setting.
This is supposed to be a mmo, not a musical piano simulator after all, right?

When I bring this up and compare FF to WoW people usually shoot me down crying "so you want to press one button and have everything done for you?" without even understanding the difference between the WoW macro mechanics and FF.
So let me give you an example:

In WoW I can use the keybinds mentioned above and have even 30-40 skills in that comfortable setting.
I only need a lower and upper hotbar. The 3rd bar with long or special binds can be toggled instantly over the main bar with shift+mouse scroll up/down.

And here are the main differences:
1 - FF works with a full 1.0 sec "wait" baseline where WoW can go as low as 0.1 sec, basically however much haste you can obtain.
2 - WoW macros also let you customise the wait time. The core I use in almost every macro looks something like this:

#showtooltip
/startattack
/castsequence reset=3 skillA, skillB, skillC

First line makes sure the macro always displays the correct icon matching the skill which turn it is.
Second line makes you select the first target in sight (camera aim/cone). Left click empty space to deselect.
Last line queues the listed skills A, B and C, with a 3 sec countdown. If the skill isn't used, the macro queue resets.

This isn't a "press 1 button once, and all skills chain in a row", you need to know your build, your skills, your rotation, put the right things in place, in order, and have the reset time polished to whatever it needs to be, 1...10...60...120 seconds,
or else it won't be optimised nor work in harmony with your other macros/rotation. And you need to manually time your hits, when you want to fire off a skill or not.

Also, pressing this while the skill is unable to fire, like a melee attack, will refresh the duration. This is important too when you for example chase someone, and have a loaded attack; you need to (and can safely spam it) till you get into melee range, before it resets on its own. This system is by far better than what FF has.

[Elemenz]

Part 2

When I first got into FF macros I had to facepalm every time I learned how a vital feature of the WoW macro system was missing:

1 - Macros won't even show the proper icons for skills that are up/next. Nor display the actual tooltip, only the custom macro name.

2 - I hate the idea of having to hit tab or left click every time I want to target something. Sure you can use a /tenemy macro but it's awkward, and always keeps selecting new targets.
Super annoying when I got my leaden fist raptor form bootshine combo crit built up for a boss, and then it gets wasted on some trash mob that runs slightly into my view field.
Can't you add a option to toggle "auto target when using skill" on/off? What do you think I want to do when I'm facing a mob and press my attack skills/spells?
YES, YES I want engage... let's go?? Why do I need to press tab or left click the mob first??

3 - Autochain or no chain. Why no middle ground like WoW? Let the player decide the internal wait time/activation timer?
Why only a option to instantly fire the next skills, and with a system that only accepts rounded up seconds, which inherently goes against the games 2.5 sec global cd??
I have no words how mind blowingly bad this design decision was.

I mean out of all the things you borrowed from WoW, this was THE thing you should have copied 1:1, but you didn't? Biggest fail ever.
So we got proper tooltip display, autotargeting, and custom reaction required trigger wait timers. Macro score WoW:3 vs FF:0.


Let's look at this monk example: Form shift. Feels super forced.
Basically FS:dragonkick to gain opoform:lead fist, then FS: bootshine to get opoform:crits behind.
You can "break the game" by getting enough speed on your monk to push the skill cd down to 2.00 from 2.50,
then you hit this baby one time, fits perfectly into the 15 row macro limit:

/ac "form shift"
/wait 2
/ac "dragon kick"
/wait 2
/ac "form shift"
/wait 2
/ac "bootshine"
/wait 2
/ac "form shift"
/wait 2
/ac "dragon kick"
/wait 2
/ac "form shift"
/wait 2
/ac "bootshine"

And there you go optimised 4 attacks, 2 behind, 100% crit mega dmg with only 1 button over 8 sec.
Now what's the real issue here? Did you figure out the 15 line macro limit yet btw?
Exactly. If there was no limit, you would have people pressing one button and roll out a 5 minute fight with perfect rotation and 100 moves like a bot.

[Elemenz]

Part 3

That's the first part of the problem:
the way FF macros only work with autotriggering skills in a row with a wait time,
instead of WoW, which has a custom internal queue reset timer, that you either use or lose, meaning having to have actual skills to know what macro sequence to activate, and when to trigger the subsequent parts within it.


So the second part is how the combat mechanics are designed: Combos.
WoW has a lot of procs, passive, rng, or controlled.
In FF all skills are controlled. You MUST use A to unlock/buff > B: repeat > C: repeat D:.....
Hard to stay on one topic since this all these things are connected....

But yeah, if I had any design power, I would change as much as possible into more buffs and procs, instead of this forced tunnel rotation.
WoW gameplay is more fun due to slightly faster cooldowns, more filler actions, it reacts faster and has a better flow. Classic not so much, and retail can be very spammy, but it feels like a actual combat game, where FF feels like a dance dance rythm game.

Look at the samurai for example (I'm not using all the right skill names for obvious reasons):
You slash - 10% dmg buff, 10% speed buff, blue sen, yellow sen, red sen, megasplerg attack, aoe1 to do aoe2 and aoe3 to refresh dmg/haste buffs.
And every 55sec you blow meiyko for instant 3 sen charges.
I mean that's not very fun or allow much for a creative playstyle. It's more like someone yelling at you "DO IT IN THE RIGHT ORDER OR ELSE!!"

All the time in the same order... I think I start to see a pattern here, how FF is big on music, devs play instruments and in bands, gameplay is like playing a piano, requires you to keep in rythm with the tempo?

The desired gameplay change I'm trying to paint is... let me get out more combos, faster, at my pace, if I want to.
FF combat in the current state doesn't allow any of that to a satisfying degree.
Too little, too slow, too restricted.

And sadly I have to end this post before even getting warm.... the missing 20/25 pages coming soon.
I know you love this stuff.

[Elemenz]

TL;DR analogy:
WoW has a all in one option. You get one big gun, you can fire single shots, full auto, small grenade launcher, flame thrower, and blade attached for stabby stab.
You still need to know which one to use, when, where, how, why, and target + position yourself correctly.
In FF all those are seperated. You can shoot with a pistol, then you have to put it in the bag, grab a machine gun, put that away, grab a grenade launcher, put that away for the knife, again for the flame thrower and so on...
Having this many buttons to press doesn't require "mORe sKiLL"... it just makes the gameplay for the player inconvenient and personally to me, pretty annoying.

[Jaiku]

Instead of increasing the number of skills, we are planning to replace the skills or alter the skill that are rarely used instead. You won’t expect the number of skills surging back in the near future.

This here does seem promising. So it is a matter of waiting and seeing.