What tanks need more then anything right now is? "More Defensive Cool-downs"

[Sedalia]

So basically bring back Shield Swipe? Or give some sort of TBN to all tanks?
I think it would be ok. But still wouldn't stop bad tanks from being bad tanks.
I know, because I was a very bad tank early in 4.X and rarely used shield swipe :P

actually shield wipe was a really good concept it just lacked "oompf" do make ability like this for all tanks it should be apart of there main combo. something like inspire new tanks special old tanks to use. it cause they need too. if they try it different way. bind it to ability after you active or complete full combos then would be awesome i would prefer that. over then just pressing rampart or dps ability potency cause it rewards good game play

[ReiMakoto]

actually shield wipe was a really good concept it just lacked "oompf" do make ability like this for all tanks it should be apart of there main combo. something like inspire new tanks special old tanks to use. it cause they need too. if they try it different way. bind it to ability after you active or complete full combos then would be awesome i would prefer that. over then just pressing rampart or dps ability potency cause it rewards good game play

The problem with these types of abilities is unless theyre basically dps neutral like TBN (i know you can stock a dark arts for more burst but rdps wise its still neutral) then you start defining a "best" tank for maintanking. Warrior currently is probably the best maintank, but it doesnt gain any dps by being that MT role, having all tanks convert damage taken to damage given in someway will mean there will be a tank that does it best (unless its completely homogenised) which makes it a lock for MT. This is the same reason why despite how popular HW DRK was, it got completely reworked going into SB due to the fact that the way it was designed it was always going to be locked to main tanking.

[Lyth]

It really doesn't matter how many new defensive cooldowns you design. The limiting factors are fight design and the existence of invulns.

Current fight design places all the mitigation emphasis on a few tankbusters that always happen at fixed timepoints. The problem with this design is that there are only two tank cooldowns: invuln and supercooldown. You invuln the first tankbuster. You pop all your remaining cooldowns on the second. Then you swap to let them recharge. In fact, most of the time, there are so few of these damage spikes that you can just invuln-swap-invuln-swap. There's no need to ration out your cooldowns, and there's no need to know how much damage you actually need to mitigate. Just press the button when the quicktime event happens.

There are plenty of other damage patterns out there that are more challenging. The very simplest one is to bring in an add that hits very hard, with unmarked cleaves that happen every so often, and has progressively increasing damage (i.e. damage stacks). These are more challenging defensively because you need to ration out your cooldowns, and you need to figure out how much damage each cleave actually does. Maybe at three stacks, only a 30% cooldown or two 20% cooldowns (net 36% DR) work, while anything less oneshots you. And because you know that specific cleave happens four autos after the stack buff increases, you can time your cooldowns such that it eats two cleaves instead of just one. This is the most basic way that you can make defensive cooldowns more interesting.

If you don't need to ration out cooldowns and you don't need to know how much damage each attack does, the whole thing is trivial.

[ijuakos_xqwzts]

What does a tank need more than anything?

Fix Provoke so that if another tank is on top of the threat list, it sets the Provoke-ing tank to some small amount under the tank who already has threat. Too many I-JUST-GOT-TO-TANK-EVERYTHING!!! mentality from tanks in 24-man raid groups go bad. Make Shirk work raid-wide so if a tank swap mechanic is needed, it can still be done.

[Mikey_R]

There is no tank swapping in any 24 man raids, so a raid wide Shirk isn't necessary.

If you do have a tank spamming provoke, just drop tank stance and let them tank. Don't try and fight it, just let it happen.

Although, I rarely run into situations in 24 man raids where that issue even comes up, so maybe it is more of a region thing, however, this also goes back to the start of this topic. The tanks just need educating. No matter how you try and 'fix' things, someone will find a way to do something stupid.

[Sedalia]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...4/unknown.jpeg


all have to say about this. anything but tank abilities right

[ijuakos_xqwzts]

If you do have a tank spamming provoke, just drop tank stance and let them tank. Don't try and fight it, just let it happen.

It happens quite often. Often enough that I'd posit the question, "how would a newb tank learn their class", if they keep appeasing the Provoke-whorish tanks out there?

[Ultimatecalibur]

It really doesn't matter how many new defensive cooldowns you design. The limiting factors are fight design and the existence of invulns.

Current fight design places all the mitigation emphasis on a few tankbusters that always happen at fixed timepoints. The problem with this design is that there are only two tank cooldowns: invuln and supercooldown. You invuln the first tankbuster. You pop all your remaining cooldowns on the second. Then you swap to let them recharge. In fact, most of the time, there are so few of these damage spikes that you can just invuln-swap-invuln-swap. There's no need to ration out your cooldowns, and there's no need to know how much damage you actually need to mitigate. Just press the button when the quicktime event happens.

There are plenty of other damage patterns out there that are more challenging. The very simplest one is to bring in an add that hits very hard, with unmarked cleaves that happen every so often, and has progressively increasing damage (i.e. damage stacks). These are more challenging defensively because you need to ration out your cooldowns, and you need to figure out how much damage each cleave actually does. Maybe at three stacks, only a 30% cooldown or two 20% cooldowns (net 36% DR) work, while anything less oneshots you. And because you know that specific cleave happens four autos after the stack buff increases, you can time your cooldowns such that it eats two cleaves instead of just one. This is the most basic way that you can make defensive cooldowns more interesting.

Exactly. Every tank has a 25s to 30s cd 6s/7s duration 20% mitigation, 90s cd 20s duration 20% mitigation, a 180s cd 15s duration 30% mitigation, a 60s cd 10s duration AoE 10% damage reduction, a 90s 15s to 30s duration party wide 15% maxhp shield or 10% magic damage mitigation, and an 8s to 10s duration invuln with varying cd length from 240s to 420s.

The 2 tanks in a full party can potentially handle a 120% mhp tankbuster every ~30s, a 110% mhp MT/OT dual tank buster every 90s, a 125% mhp tank buster every 90s, a 100% healer mhp raid wide every 30s, 115% healer mhp ride wide every 45s (or a 130% super raid wide every 90s), and a MT damage cap attack every 210 seconds.

We do not need more mitigation; we need more reasons to use our mitigation.

What does a tank need more than anything?

Fix Provoke so that if another tank is on top of the threat list, it sets the Provoke-ing tank to some small amount under the tank who already has threat. Too many I-JUST-GOT-TO-TANK-EVERYTHING!!! mentality from tanks in 24-man raid groups go bad. Make Shirk work raid-wide so if a tank swap mechanic is needed, it can still be done.

No, Provoke is the tank swap tool. If you have tanks using Provoke being used on cooldown as if it was a taunt in another game, the solution is proper training or being willing to not fight the other tanks in 24 man content.

If you are complaining about Provoke in 24-man content you are another of those "I-JUST-GOT-TO-TANK-EVERYTHING!!!" tanks you are complaining about.

It happens quite often. Often enough that I'd posit the question, "how would a newb tank learn their class", if they keep appeasing the Provoke-whorish tanks out there?

By having them die in situations where proper Provoke use is important? You are complaining about it in situations where it doesn't actually matter.

[Furious]

I think you misunderstand me yes tanks to do damage. but i want them do more then "Just do damage" there abilities have be more creative then the just "Potency Damage"

there "damage abilities" should have additional effects "that presants what a tank is as class fantasy"

here let me explain simple term

"Holy Spirit" - Currently only does potency damage but they could added little more complexity to this spell

Like everything you cast "holy spirit or Holy Circle" you gain 10% this can stack up 3 times. this more creative then just doing damage cause these are abilities you cast over and over. this type of effect would make sense. now these abilities make me feel like am tanking and it make those uguu-bunga me not smart me dont use cooldown dps tanks

however paladin when paladin changed they got bout 4-5 skills that pretty much does the same thing. felt less like a tank should more like dps. taking away from tank fantasy making it more like dps fantasy

I want you understand fine with tanks dealing damage as long doesn't destroy tank fantasy completely. doesn't destroy game as a whole

In what way would that change the current rotation that Paladin uses today?

Anything used rotationally would continue to be used rotationally, or would be used as required as mitigation abilities are today. Unless you mean entirely change the idea of requiescat on Paladin, nothing changes as a result of this suggestion.

The reason we absolutely don't want more rotational defensive abilities are because they are fundamentally not interesting; you hit a button and functionally nothing happens except a number goes down. On the other hand, defensive cooldowns and variety between them invariably leads to tank imbalances and then into discrimination against specific tanks, which is why the tank defenses are as homogenised as they are today.

Frankly, I get all the tank fantasy I need by having massive bosses and large swathes of mobs hitting me and me not dying. That's what makes me a tank; I'm getting hit and living, where I would die if I was a dps or a healer. I have the tools, I have the basic kit, I have the toughness to survive all that. I don't need to be actively pressing buttons to engage in it further (and in actual fact, every tanks' basic rotation does impact on their survival at a mediocre level anyway - brutal shell, mana return, buff maintenance, and so on).

[Lyth]

That's what makes me a tank; I'm getting hit and living, where I would die if I was a dps or a healer.

If that's the main distinction, then it's a blurry one. Presently, untanked mobs are a nuisance, but outside of tankbusters they generally don't oneshot non-tanks. That's a bit of a departure from Shadow of Meracydia spawning and then instantly oneshotting your WHM in T13, back in ARR.

This is a deliberate design decision. If you're bad at the fundamentals of tanking, it upsets a lot of people. So none of that actually matters anymore. Tanks are just melee dps with an occasional quicktime tankbuster event. And I think that a lot of tanks would be more than content with this sort of design, if it weren't for one, tiny little caveat: you don't do anywhere near the same amount of damage as a melee dps.

The defensive impact and the survivability impact that you get out of being a tank is much, much smaller than the offensive benefit of playing DPS.

Tanking is a completely neutered role. You're better off sticking your worst teammates on it, because there are the least amount of things that they can impact or mess up. I think you're going to see a lot of more skilled players migrate off tanking, especially when Reaper hits next expansion.