Can we finally get real content / gameplay?

[muzickmage]

Just to mention (my experience in a dungeon)

Last night.... I ran the Praetorium only to be annoyed with the rest of the group. I ran along with everyone else... but purposely ran in last place in case there were someone confused and needed help. This turned out to be a big mistake. The entire group was just running past all the enemies without even trying to kill any of them... and I wasn't stupid enough to do it by myself lol. Or so I thought. Everyone clicked the magitech teleport and got teleported to the next part of the dungeons. Everyone except me. I couldn't click it. There were so many enemies surrounding the teleport area that I couldn't click on it. Every time I tried I'd click an enemy instead. They would kill me and i had to use the shortcut which 3 times brought me back to that exact same teleport only to be killed again by the swarm of enemies the rest of the group left behind as they rushed forward not caring about the people behind them. In this case... People = "me". Finally the shortcut teleported me to where the rest of the group was... HOWEVER.. it was with the Magitech armor. I had to go back down the lift to activate it... which everyone did on the way up... so I lost everyone AGAIN. They weren't shy about leaving me behind as I went to activate the Magatech.

Long story short.... I didn't have to worry about any of that nonsense as a solo player. The problem with dungeons is people. People are destroying the dungeon experience.

(so.... trying to stay on topic here) yes... dungeons are mind-numbingly boring, and easy. But.... lets keep in mind how much of this problem we are creating for ourselves.

If you're the type of player who runs past everything in a dungeons just to teleport to the next part of the dungeon - just to run from everything again to click the next teleport... how can I take you serious when you complain that the dungeon is too easy. Really? It's too easy? lol. Here's an idea.. how about next time you're in a dungeon... you try earning your way down the hall instead of running like a coward screaming its too easy. Also.... if its that easy for you ... then why is it the healer has to save your ass how many times now was it? You want a challenge... don't bring the healer being that the healer seems to be one of the main reasons why your sorry ass is making it down the hallway long enough to cry about how boring it is. lol.

My argument is.... group play is destroying dungeons.. and people (group play) are the reason why dungeons won't get much better.

[Tavieon]

Just to mention (my experience in a dungeon)

Last night.... I ran the Praetorium only to be annoyed with the rest of the group. I ran along with everyone else... but purposely ran in last place in case there were someone ...

My argument is.... group play is destroying dungeons.. and people (group play) are the reason why dungeons won't get much better.

I disagree on this comment since he's specifically mentioning Praetorium... Well, this exact dungeon was even more laughable speedfest content back in ARR when skipping cutscenes were possible. Even some YouTube parody video suite mentions this crap... check up RABToons video...


But in general, this comment isn't completely wrong. While working on entire MSQ (from ARR, again, due to losing my old account, to ShB), I've found almost NO dungeons imposing any challenge in terms of dungeon navigation and pull tactics. They say WoW WotLK simplified dungeons too much. But the dungeons after ARR is even simpler than that... But the dungeons after level 50 brackets?... No diverse pathways, no interesting trash monster abilities, just fancy atmosphere with simple, linear pathway... I don't think this is a critical downside. Also, game devs needs to comply with what people wants. This is what people wants, then so be it.

The class abilities seems too unified as well. I've recently worked on two tank classes to 80... They both feel the same in terms of skill usage. Single target combo, aoe combo, survival skills (which most of them are even sorted as 'role' skills.. literally same skills)... Motions are just the difference... This is actually problematic in WoW as well. But at least they have some class identity, still. And no! the 2.5 seconds GCD problem does not disappear in max level gameplay, either.

All things considered, they are not so much of game-breaking mishaps, if everyone is happy with running everyone. But these days, people are not very friendly at all. Some say this game has much more generous attitude than WoW? The fact is, people tends to be more friendly to sprouts. But you'll exceed gameplay time and reach level 80 to not to be able to maintain the sprout. Yet, you won't know all the 80 content inside out. Then people becomes extremely toxic against you. Just like WoW.


To wrap up, the fundamental problem is the people.

[Talking_Citrus]

No diverse pathways, no interesting trash monster abilities, just fancy atmosphere with simple, linear pathway... I don't think this is a critical downside. Also, game devs needs to comply with what people wants. This is what people wants, then so be it.

The class abilities seems too unified as well. I've recently worked on two tank classes to 80... They both feel the same in terms of skill usage. Single target combo, aoe combo, survival skills (which most of them are even sorted as 'role' skills.. literally same skills)... Motions are just the difference... This is actually problematic in WoW as well. But at least they have some class identity, still. And no! the 2.5 seconds GCD problem does not disappear in max level gameplay, either.

All things considered, they are not so much of game-breaking mishaps, if everyone is happy with running everyone. But these days, people are not very friendly at all. Some say this game has much more generous attitude than WoW? The fact is, people tends to be more friendly to sprouts. But you'll exceed gameplay time and reach level 80 to not to be able to maintain the sprout. Yet, you won't know all the 80 content inside out. Then people becomes extremely toxic against you. Just like WoW.


To wrap up, the fundamental problem is the people.

Ultimately, this. The thing that I find troubling though is that I don't think a lot of the newer mmo generation (I'm talking about teenagers mostly) have ever really experienced what (I'm gonna guess from how you're speaking) what we have. I'm not sure they know how satisfying it is to beat a dungeon with varied, interesting, but challenging mechanics, and mobs that are tuned to ACTUALLY wipe you if you aren't careful. If they've learned that the right mindset is to focus exclusively on better gear, why would they want that to take longer? I don't blame them, but I do think it's sad that it's ultimately leading to the absolute demise of what used to be an amazing genre. Keep in mind that anyone who's 18 today likely never would have experienced vanilla WoW or TBC, and DEFINITELY wouldn't have experienced EQ.

[DinahDemiurge]

Ultimately, this. The thing that I find troubling though is that I don't think a lot of the newer mmo generation (I'm talking about teenagers mostly) have ever really experienced what (I'm gonna guess from how you're speaking) what we have. I'm not sure they know how satisfying it is to beat a dungeon with varied, interesting, but challenging mechanics, and mobs that are tuned to ACTUALLY wipe you if you aren't careful. If they've learned that the right mindset is to focus exclusively on better gear, why would they want that to take longer? I don't blame them, but I do think it's sad that it's ultimately leading to the absolute demise of what used to be an amazing genre. Keep in mind that anyone who's 18 today likely never would have experienced vanilla WoW or TBC, and DEFINITELY wouldn't have experienced EQ.

Some of my most vivid MMO memories to this day are experiences I had in EQ and FFXI. EQ I remember falling down a hole and respawning naked...and I found someone kind enough (an enchanter class) to help me get my corpse and stuff back. This was the kind of server where people could STEAL stuff off your corpse, but they were nice and let me have my stuff back. I also have crazy memories of crawler's nest, exploring the zarkabard castle before the demonlord fight, and maguuma jungle in FFXI. I enjoy FFXIV but I have very few of these crazy sorts of memories(actually none, really. Maybe the first round of coils in 2.0 was memorable). There's a reason for this.

[Talking_Citrus]

Some of my most vivid MMO memories to this day are experiences I had in EQ and FFXI. EQ I remember falling down a hole and respawning naked...and I found someone kind enough (an enchanter class) to help me get my corpse and stuff back. This was the kind of server where people could STEAL stuff off your corpse, but they were nice and let me have my stuff back. I also have crazy memories of crawler's nest, exploring the zarkabard castle before the demonlord fight, and maguuma jungle in FFXI. I enjoy FFXIV but I have very few of these crazy sorts of memories(actually none, really. Maybe the first round of coils in 2.0 was memorable). There's a reason for this.

Yes! Love that story btw, thanks for sharing Frankly I didn't play enough EQ myself to have many memories, as I was a big warcraft fan and jumped onto WoW as soon as it came out, but I do have a lot of second-hand experience in stories from friends, etc. and yes, your story highlights what made mmorpgs so incredibly fun - the human interaction. I have countless memories (as a priest main, love healers) of dungeons where fights went awry, but thanks to the heroics of everyone in the group (basically making a series of sometimes pretty creative snap decisions to try and salvage the situation) and instinctive coordination between us (even as strangers, often times) it made for the most EXCITING, INTENSE fights even if it was just a trash pull and a pat ended up flanking us or something. Like, idk if you played WoW but regardless of which dungeon, if you had a 3 mob pull, your rogue sapped 1, but you then got flanked by a 2 mob patrol and the sapped mob woke up before the fight with the other 4 was completely over... Surviving that was MEMORABLE. People had to do some wild shit. Of course, there are tons of fun exploration and RP memories as well, making new friends, randomly saving or being saved by strangers in dire situations, etc... Gah talking about it is bittersweet, it brings back such nice memories but i feel so nostalgic too :3

Idk if anyone who had only played modern MMOs would even believe me if I told them that you could actually feel a bit tired after a really intense dungeon because of the adrenaline rush and coming down from it lol...

[DinahDemiurge]

Yes! Love that story btw, thanks for sharing Frankly I didn't play enough EQ myself to have many memories, as I was a big warcraft fan and jumped onto WoW as soon as it came out, but I do have a lot of second-hand experience in stories from friends, etc. and yes, your story highlights what made mmorpgs so incredibly fun - the human interaction. I have countless memories (as a priest main, love healers) of dungeons where fights went awry, but thanks to the heroics of everyone in the group (basically making a series of sometimes pretty creative snap decisions to try and salvage the situation) and instinctive coordination between us (even as strangers, often times) it made for the most EXCITING, INTENSE fights even if it was just a trash pull and a pat ended up flanking us or something. Like, idk if you played WoW but regardless of which dungeon, if you had a 3 mob pull, your rogue sapped 1, but you then got flanked by a 2 mob patrol and the sapped mob woke up before the fight with the other 4 was completely over... Surviving that was MEMORABLE. People had to do some wild shit. Of course, there are tons of fun exploration and RP memories as well, making new friends, randomly saving or being saved by strangers in dire situations, etc... Gah talking about it is bittersweet, it brings back such nice memories but i feel so nostalgic too :3

Idk if anyone who had only played modern MMOs would even believe me if I told them that you could actually feel a bit tired after a really intense dungeon because of the adrenaline rush and coming down from it lol...

Yeah. I did play WoW with my girlfriend near launch EQ2 came out at the same time and it wasn't good so decided to try WoW with her. The leveling experience was memorable but mainly because it was a pvp server, I think. I did also raid, which was memorable as well...playing a rogue sneaking through the hatchery in blackwing lair with 39 people praying I don't f up when I am in stealth pressing the switches and stuff was pretty fun. Naxx and onwards I didn't really play much tho. AQ was okay.

[Talking_Citrus]

playing a rogue sneaking through the hatchery in blackwing lair with 39 people praying I don't f up when I am in stealth pressing the switches and stuff was pretty fun. Naxx and onwards I didn't really play much tho. AQ was okay.

Lol right? That tension was part of the fun though! For everyone involved. It's similar to gambling, actually... You're investing your time and gold in Raid Roulette, now lets see if the ball (rogue) lands on Black, Red, or 0(<--- both a dragon egg and a zero - best analogy I could come up with lol). Or, lets see if LEEEEROOOOY JEEEEEENKIIIINS is on one of his alts and it doesn't actually matter where the rogue lands I've never been huge on PvP, I've always preferred PvE content myself, so I was on one of the rare RP servers. Funny how back then factions who didn't get along could totally get away with calling someone something like a "Dirty Dwarf" something something about "Their Kind" which was obviously in character, but nowadays put my hand to a flame that'll land you at least a temp ban for racism or some shit lmao.