Emet-Selch, The Brother Hypothesis

[Vyrerus]

So, not gonna lie, I've had about a liter of nihonshu. With the greater share of my pre-Endwalkers achievements/desires done, I've not much else to do but think and ruminate.

A line has always bothered me/stuck out to me/begged me to overthink it.

Leading up to our final confrontation with Hades, he makes the quip, "Fool. Who are you? No one. Nothing. Once I have reclaimed my heritage, my first act will be to expunge your stain from history's weave."


Emet-selch/Hades averts his eyes. He cannot look at you while he says this.

My world will have no need for heroes.

So, if you know these lines in another language, then please, tell me what differs. Especially if you know them in Japanese. I want to know what context was possibly lost in translation, or what possible loopholes localization cleverly used to get the lip sync a little more accurate.

Anyroad, my line of thinking follows thus: Emet-selch is Older Brother Coded.

1. He's old. That's made abundantly clear.

2. He shows a favoritism towards the WoL. This could be for many reasons, but the subtext reads that it is personal. Hades seems to be at odds with not just the WoL being presently set against him, but against the very core ideals that the WoL holds... i.e. Heroism. It reminds me of one of my older brothers who has differing philosophical/political/social views from my own.

3. The average player picks a fairly short character, whereas Emet-selch is tall. Hence, most people will always be looking up to him, in and between cutscenes.

4. In my experience, brothers have the fiercest personal conflicts. Whenever my brothers and I have fought, we have held nothing back. This sort of conflict has had a few trope-like things throughout history. Namely Cain and Abel from Abrahamic Religions, as well as the rivalry between Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon.

5. Emet-selch's true name is Hades. I have an, admittedly personal, belief that Azem's true name was Poseidon(or something relational like Neptune or Pontus). This is mostly related to the fact that the WoL's aetherial signature is Blue Aether. The first Blue Mage spell the WoL easily learns is Water Cannon from a young Kraken. Poseidon was also the god of horses and earthquakes(not just the sea). Horses in myth represent many things, but chief among them are: power, heroism, independence, nobleness, and triumph. Poseidon is also the younger of the two, between Hades and himself. However, since Lahabrea is said to have made the pegasi, that is attributed to Poseidon, so it leaves room that Azem may have been Zeus. Zeus is the youngest of the three.

6. "Oath of Blood, Born from Blood, or our Fallen Brothers. Time stands still. Oaths fulfilled, now we run for freedom!" <- approximate lyrics from Endwalkers theme trailer music. Perhaps it's just my addled brain speaking, but SE always did seem to favor metaphors that took on a literal meaning on top of their symbolic ones. There's a word for that, but I'm too drunk to look it up.

7. I reckon that Emet-selch's hatred of heroes arises from his sense of duty to the orderly society that his people generated, on top of his inferiority complex in regards to his brother and more particularly, his brother's methods. I feel as though, try as Emet-selch might, time and time again he tried to prevail with the methods he and society loved, only to see Azem smash them to pieces and stand triumphant over them, not merely grandstanding as the Scions do (though they follow). However, I assume that the one time Emet-selch was right, was when the Convocation and Azem had their difference, and so doing, doomed Azem. In this way, Emet's disgust for heroes is not actually with heroes, but with the fact that the greatest hero he ever knew needed him, and for pettiness's sake he was not there for him. I also reckon that the voiceover we here in the Endwalker trailer, which is Emet-selch speaking, will be found in a holo-recording in the Mare Lamentorum.

We don't have anything concrete, of course, but it's something that's stuck in my brain since 5.0.

If anything, could any other lore enthusiast, or any lore forum peruser that happens to care and know, let me know if the line about, "reclaiming my heritage." is radically different in other languages?

[Enkidoh]

That's a really interesting theory, but alas the Poseidon connection doesn't really fit when you remember what Azem was meant to be symbolizing - the sun, thus making them closer to Helios thematically (after all, Azem's name lived on as a cultural meme in the Twelve as Azeyma the goddess of the Sun in Eorzea, and Azim the Dawn Father of the xaela au ra on Othard) - I suspect another member of the Convocation was probably named Poseidon and probably inspired tales on the Source in other ways, like, say, the Llymlaen the Navigator?

Still, I admit I never considered that Emet/Hades and Azem might have been familarly related - I kind of thought they may have had a romantic connection possibly, but never considered they were siblings. It's an intriguing theory!

And my own personal headcanon for my character's backstory is Enki!Azem's real name was Athena for no other reason for being a warrior and intelligent, despite Athena being much closer thematic wise to Halone, but it's my headcanon so I can have it however I want! haha :P

[Anonymoose]

I was gunning for Hades / Poseidon / Zeus as Emet-Selch / Lahabrea / Elidibus, myself, but - translation of that line...

世界は、私たちが取り戻す。　お前たちの歴史は、どこに繋がることもない……。
We will take back this world. Your history leads nowhere...

Sobald ich dem Planeten seine reine Form wiedergegeben habe, werde ich dafür sorgen, dass du, dieser Schandfleck seiner Geschichte, vollkommen ausgelöscht wirst.
Once I have restored this planet to its true form, I will see to it that you, a stain on its history, are completely erased.

Nous allons reprendre le monde en main. Écrire une nouvelle page de l'histoire, en faisant table rase de votre parcours dérisoire.
We will take back this world. We will write a new page of history, and wipe clean the slate of your pathetic journey.

The heroes section is about the same, but depending on the language he stresses that there will never have been heroes at all; he's literally going to wipe their record from history. In a way it highlights the Warrior of Light as the better individual here, as Emet-Selch is straight up admitting that if the tables were turned, he would not remember you.

[Iscah]

I don't see any reason to read that line as indicating Hades and Azem were brothers.

Hades, as an Ancient, has lost his "inheritance" of the world to the mortals who have (to his interpretation) invaded and taken over what is rightfully his – and he plans to wipe them out. That is all it needs to mean.

Also, counting on the fact that "most" people will be shorter than him is not a reliable way to set him up as seeming taller to create a plot point. And your thing about Greek gods and horses sounds like way too many leaps of logic to be intended (or at least useful) symbolism.

[Vyrerus]

I don't see any reason to read that line as indicating Hades and Azem were brothers.

Hades, as an Ancient, has lost his "inheritance" of the world to the mortals who have (to his interpretation) invaded and taken over what is rightfully his – and he plans to wipe them out. That is all it needs to mean.

Also, counting on the fact that "most" people will be shorter than him is not a reliable way to set him up as seeming taller to create a plot point. And your thing about Greek gods and horses sounds like way too many leaps of logic to be intended (or at least useful) symbolism.

Perhaps you don't, and that is ok.

I think there is, however. Especially considering all of the strong parallels they drew to Shakespeare's play in the environs and the sort of setup leading up to the events of the end of 5.0. In the play, The Tempest, Prospero(analogue for Emet) sees the opportunity to take revenge against his brother, Antonio. My personal readings aside, why disregard such an easy allusion if it so easily aligns? Not saying that I'm right, but the parallels are there.

Actually, it is. Common playerbase choices are often part of design decisions. Hence why we get majority female clothing in unique designs as well as hairstyles. So it goes for player characters, so it goes for other content, including story. I don't have exact numbers, and haven't bothered census hunting, but I'm fairly sure the playerbase plays short characters, mostly female.

As for horses and Poseidon... I think people have missed(perhaps ignored) what it is I'm referring to, and that is the idea of the true name of Azem, as Azem is a title, not a name. If Azem were Poseidon, Poseidon was the God of the Ocean, Earthquakes, and Horses. There are also many other mythologies and gods of old that have a horse or horses that represent part of their aspect (including a sun god that has 7 horses which represent the 7 colors of light). The Convocation and Ancients/Ascians are related in this way by having true names that are from that mythology, and that is why I draw the comparison in the first place.

Anyway, I'm up too late, and need to definitely crash. Especially now that my head is merely swirling without the jovial mixture of inebriation. Thank you for your responses, everyone, and big thanks to Moose for finding those translations! <3

[akita_kt]

Isn't there an idea that Emet-Selch is all related to twin imagery? His constellation is Gemini, he's Nald'Thal (twin deities), he got a complete mask that looks like a funeral mask on his shoulders on his Hades form -- one identical to his, but complete and probably signifying someone dead. I do think there's something going on, I just don't know if Emet-Selch would be Azem's brother.

[Iscah]

My personal readings aside, why disregard such an easy allusion if it so easily aligns? Not saying that I'm right, but the parallels are there.

If it is such an "easy allusion", why has nobody raised it in two years? Why didn't you raise it in your first post?

In any case I don't know enough of the Tempest to debate it.

Actually, it is. Common playerbase choices are often part of design decisions. Hence why we get majority female clothing in unique designs as well as hairstyles. So it goes for player characters, so it goes for other content, including story. I don't have exact numbers, and haven't bothered census hunting, but I'm fairly sure the playerbase plays short characters, mostly female.

Catering to common races for glamour design is a very different thing to pinning an important plot point hint to the relative heights of characters who may not have the desired height difference at all.

Doubly so when there is a very simple practical reason: Emet is a Garlean and is the height of a normal Garlean.

If fact, he's not even a tall Garlean. His character model base is a zero-height Elezen. They're not trying to make him as physically imposing as possible.

[Gothicshark]

Well it's an interesting perspective, and not far off of what I read into the character in retrospect.

Yes, it was personal, that much was clear. Yes, Azem and Emet-Selch had some kind of close social relationship. One could also say that Emet-Selch and Azem had a massive disagreement in the Ancient Past and the Hades fight was the conclusion of the Argument, and Emet-Selch was relieved to loose, which is why he set up aid for the future if the WOL won.

However the type of relationship is debatable and only Yoshi-P knows the answer.

My take was that they were lovers, but brothers works as well, hell even "Siblings of another mother" could work. What ever their relationship it was close and familiar in one way or another, They were more than work colleagues though.

[Gothicshark]

I want to clarify a bit more on this. Going point by point, giving my perspective on each of your points.

1. He's old. That's made abundantly clear.

Over 9000... (Joke), but seriously he is one of the 3 Unsundered, which means he's older than History. And even though the exact time scale has never been stated, each era is just over a 1000 years, ARR starts the 14th era of history. Meaning the Source is at least 14000 years old and could be millions of years old, meaning Emet-Selch is at least that old, and since the Ancients were timeless beings, he's even older than that. He's at this point in the story the Oldest Being known, with the exception of dragons and alien robots which could be even older.

2. He shows a favoritism towards the WoL. ...

Familiar relationship is clear, but the read could be lovers, husband & wife/husband, best friends to the point of being Brothers/Sister of another mother. Jumping right in to one of these relationships because it reflects on your past is fine, but it is an assumption to read more than face value here. Personally because of the very clear queer coding of Emet-Selch and his obsessive nature, I read this as Husband and Husband, with them breaking up over the augment over how they planned to deal with the troubles facing their world. Emet-Selch wanted to Create a God, and Azem wanted to Inspire Heroism, which Ironically inspired Elidibus even though he stayed on to Summon Zodiark.

3. The average player picks a fairly short character, ...

This is not really a point, Emet-Selch's current body plan is his Garlean Version, which are all Tall Hyuran, as base Garleans are Hyuran Heads on Elezen Bodies at Max Sliders. With named Garleans all being buff Roegadyn Sized Humans. (Drools at sexy Cid posters), Ironically my Femroe is Taller than Emet-Selch by a large bit.

4. In my experience, brothers have the fiercest personal conflicts....

Ex-Lovers who still love each other will wage immortal wars to prove they are correct. Although Final Fantasy uses a lot of Mythology in the look and feel, and naming conventions, the series has always based conflict on reality and realistic type events which is a lot easier for people to relate to. Million year hate between Siblings is rare in reality, while divorce of lovers is an every day experience, and totally relatable to most.
end of Part 1 of 2

[Iscah]

I [Garleans] are all Tall Humans, as base Garleans are Human Heads on Elezen Bodies at Max Sliders. With named Garleans all being buff Roegadyn Sized Humans.

Human heads on Elezen bodies, sure. (Though some are Hyuran instead.) But they're not necessarily max sliders at all – they can still be set to whatever height they want the model to be. As I linked earlier, Emet's model is set at zero height.

And by "all named Garleans" I think you mean Zenos and Varis, because plenty of the Elezen- and Hyuran-sized ones have names.