Emet-Selch, The Brother Hypothesis

[Vyrerus]

So, not gonna lie, I've had about a liter of nihonshu. With the greater share of my pre-Endwalkers achievements/desires done, I've not much else to do but think and ruminate.

A line has always bothered me/stuck out to me/begged me to overthink it.

Leading up to our final confrontation with Hades, he makes the quip, "Fool. Who are you? No one. Nothing. Once I have reclaimed my heritage, my first act will be to expunge your stain from history's weave."


Emet-selch/Hades averts his eyes. He cannot look at you while he says this.

My world will have no need for heroes.

So, if you know these lines in another language, then please, tell me what differs. Especially if you know them in Japanese. I want to know what context was possibly lost in translation, or what possible loopholes localization cleverly used to get the lip sync a little more accurate.

Anyroad, my line of thinking follows thus: Emet-selch is Older Brother Coded.

1. He's old. That's made abundantly clear.

2. He shows a favoritism towards the WoL. This could be for many reasons, but the subtext reads that it is personal. Hades seems to be at odds with not just the WoL being presently set against him, but against the very core ideals that the WoL holds... i.e. Heroism. It reminds me of one of my older brothers who has differing philosophical/political/social views from my own.

3. The average player picks a fairly short character, whereas Emet-selch is tall. Hence, most people will always be looking up to him, in and between cutscenes.

4. In my experience, brothers have the fiercest personal conflicts. Whenever my brothers and I have fought, we have held nothing back. This sort of conflict has had a few trope-like things throughout history. Namely Cain and Abel from Abrahamic Religions, as well as the rivalry between Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon.

5. Emet-selch's true name is Hades. I have an, admittedly personal, belief that Azem's true name was Poseidon(or something relational like Neptune or Pontus). This is mostly related to the fact that the WoL's aetherial signature is Blue Aether. The first Blue Mage spell the WoL easily learns is Water Cannon from a young Kraken. Poseidon was also the god of horses and earthquakes(not just the sea). Horses in myth represent many things, but chief among them are: power, heroism, independence, nobleness, and triumph. Poseidon is also the younger of the two, between Hades and himself. However, since Lahabrea is said to have made the pegasi, that is attributed to Poseidon, so it leaves room that Azem may have been Zeus. Zeus is the youngest of the three.

6. "Oath of Blood, Born from Blood, or our Fallen Brothers. Time stands still. Oaths fulfilled, now we run for freedom!" <- approximate lyrics from Endwalkers theme trailer music. Perhaps it's just my addled brain speaking, but SE always did seem to favor metaphors that took on a literal meaning on top of their symbolic ones. There's a word for that, but I'm too drunk to look it up.

7. I reckon that Emet-selch's hatred of heroes arises from his sense of duty to the orderly society that his people generated, on top of his inferiority complex in regards to his brother and more particularly, his brother's methods. I feel as though, try as Emet-selch might, time and time again he tried to prevail with the methods he and society loved, only to see Azem smash them to pieces and stand triumphant over them, not merely grandstanding as the Scions do (though they follow). However, I assume that the one time Emet-selch was right, was when the Convocation and Azem had their difference, and so doing, doomed Azem. In this way, Emet's disgust for heroes is not actually with heroes, but with the fact that the greatest hero he ever knew needed him, and for pettiness's sake he was not there for him. I also reckon that the voiceover we here in the Endwalker trailer, which is Emet-selch speaking, will be found in a holo-recording in the Mare Lamentorum.

We don't have anything concrete, of course, but it's something that's stuck in my brain since 5.0.

If anything, could any other lore enthusiast, or any lore forum peruser that happens to care and know, let me know if the line about, "reclaiming my heritage." is radically different in other languages?

[Enkidoh]

That's a really interesting theory, but alas the Poseidon connection doesn't really fit when you remember what Azem was meant to be symbolizing - the sun, thus making them closer to Helios thematically (after all, Azem's name lived on as a cultural meme in the Twelve as Azeyma the goddess of the Sun in Eorzea, and Azim the Dawn Father of the xaela au ra on Othard) - I suspect another member of the Convocation was probably named Poseidon and probably inspired tales on the Source in other ways, like, say, the Llymlaen the Navigator?

Still, I admit I never considered that Emet/Hades and Azem might have been familarly related - I kind of thought they may have had a romantic connection possibly, but never considered they were siblings. It's an intriguing theory!

And my own personal headcanon for my character's backstory is Enki!Azem's real name was Athena for no other reason for being a warrior and intelligent, despite Athena being much closer thematic wise to Halone, but it's my headcanon so I can have it however I want! haha :P

[Anonymoose]

I was gunning for Hades / Poseidon / Zeus as Emet-Selch / Lahabrea / Elidibus, myself, but - translation of that line...

世界は、私たちが取り戻す。　お前たちの歴史は、どこに繋がることもない……。
We will take back this world. Your history leads nowhere...

Sobald ich dem Planeten seine reine Form wiedergegeben habe, werde ich dafür sorgen, dass du, dieser Schandfleck seiner Geschichte, vollkommen ausgelöscht wirst.
Once I have restored this planet to its true form, I will see to it that you, a stain on its history, are completely erased.

Nous allons reprendre le monde en main. Écrire une nouvelle page de l'histoire, en faisant table rase de votre parcours dérisoire.
We will take back this world. We will write a new page of history, and wipe clean the slate of your pathetic journey.

The heroes section is about the same, but depending on the language he stresses that there will never have been heroes at all; he's literally going to wipe their record from history. In a way it highlights the Warrior of Light as the better individual here, as Emet-Selch is straight up admitting that if the tables were turned, he would not remember you.

[Iscah]

I don't see any reason to read that line as indicating Hades and Azem were brothers.

Hades, as an Ancient, has lost his "inheritance" of the world to the mortals who have (to his interpretation) invaded and taken over what is rightfully his – and he plans to wipe them out. That is all it needs to mean.

Also, counting on the fact that "most" people will be shorter than him is not a reliable way to set him up as seeming taller to create a plot point. And your thing about Greek gods and horses sounds like way too many leaps of logic to be intended (or at least useful) symbolism.

[Vyrerus]

I don't see any reason to read that line as indicating Hades and Azem were brothers.

Hades, as an Ancient, has lost his "inheritance" of the world to the mortals who have (to his interpretation) invaded and taken over what is rightfully his – and he plans to wipe them out. That is all it needs to mean.

Also, counting on the fact that "most" people will be shorter than him is not a reliable way to set him up as seeming taller to create a plot point. And your thing about Greek gods and horses sounds like way too many leaps of logic to be intended (or at least useful) symbolism.

Perhaps you don't, and that is ok.

I think there is, however. Especially considering all of the strong parallels they drew to Shakespeare's play in the environs and the sort of setup leading up to the events of the end of 5.0. In the play, The Tempest, Prospero(analogue for Emet) sees the opportunity to take revenge against his brother, Antonio. My personal readings aside, why disregard such an easy allusion if it so easily aligns? Not saying that I'm right, but the parallels are there.

Actually, it is. Common playerbase choices are often part of design decisions. Hence why we get majority female clothing in unique designs as well as hairstyles. So it goes for player characters, so it goes for other content, including story. I don't have exact numbers, and haven't bothered census hunting, but I'm fairly sure the playerbase plays short characters, mostly female.

As for horses and Poseidon... I think people have missed(perhaps ignored) what it is I'm referring to, and that is the idea of the true name of Azem, as Azem is a title, not a name. If Azem were Poseidon, Poseidon was the God of the Ocean, Earthquakes, and Horses. There are also many other mythologies and gods of old that have a horse or horses that represent part of their aspect (including a sun god that has 7 horses which represent the 7 colors of light). The Convocation and Ancients/Ascians are related in this way by having true names that are from that mythology, and that is why I draw the comparison in the first place.

Anyway, I'm up too late, and need to definitely crash. Especially now that my head is merely swirling without the jovial mixture of inebriation. Thank you for your responses, everyone, and big thanks to Moose for finding those translations! <3

[Iscah]

My personal readings aside, why disregard such an easy allusion if it so easily aligns? Not saying that I'm right, but the parallels are there.

If it is such an "easy allusion", why has nobody raised it in two years? Why didn't you raise it in your first post?

In any case I don't know enough of the Tempest to debate it.

Actually, it is. Common playerbase choices are often part of design decisions. Hence why we get majority female clothing in unique designs as well as hairstyles. So it goes for player characters, so it goes for other content, including story. I don't have exact numbers, and haven't bothered census hunting, but I'm fairly sure the playerbase plays short characters, mostly female.

Catering to common races for glamour design is a very different thing to pinning an important plot point hint to the relative heights of characters who may not have the desired height difference at all.

Doubly so when there is a very simple practical reason: Emet is a Garlean and is the height of a normal Garlean.

If fact, he's not even a tall Garlean. His character model base is a zero-height Elezen. They're not trying to make him as physically imposing as possible.

[Vyrerus]

If it is such an "easy allusion", why has nobody raised it in two years? Why didn't you raise it in your first post?

In any case I don't know enough of the Tempest to debate it.





Catering to common races for glamour design is a very different thing to pinning an important plot point hint to the relative heights of characters who may not have the desired height difference at all.

Doubly so when there is a very simple practical reason: Emet is a Garlean and is the height of a normal Garlean.

If fact, he's not even a tall Garlean. His character model base is a zero-height Elezen. They're not trying to make him as physically imposing as possible.

Nice to know that I'm nobody. :P I've raised it a few times, when the subject of Emet-selch's relation to the WoL or when topics on the Tempest come up.

You kind of answer your own question though. Not very many people who play FFXIV are actually versed in any of Shakespeare's works, let alone specifically The Tempest. I myself am only passingly familiar, and only really thanks to the movie, "Forbidden Planet." Which actually runs more closely to being the plot lift for Amaurot, but at the time the movie was released, they wanted to draw comparisons to Shakespeare and claimed to lift their own plot template from The Tempest. Which is true, in a cursory sense.

To save you some time, if you haven't already bothered looking, Antonio is Prospero's brother, but he kind of gets lumped in with the other nobleman in the play that "stole" Prospero's station as Duke. The play itself focuses more on Prospero and a romance that he sets up between someone else's daughter and another man in the play.

As for catering to what's common, I'm not sure why your perceive a difference. Canonically, or at least promotionally, the story is written with the assumption that the WoL is the Midlander we see in the cutscenes and the trailers. He's only like a head taller the Alphinaud, and an ilm or two shorter than Thancred... at least if my memory serves from trailer watching. I don't look up exact character slider details but midlander max height is 5'11.6, and I don't think that he is.

And the point with Emet-selch isn't to make him large and imposing. It's to make you look up at him, while he looks down on you. A zero height elezen is still 6'4.5 nearly 6'5. It dwarfs over half the races and genders by that fact alone, as well as some of the taller races if they're also set to lower than 50 or at 0(though these are admittedly barely). Most people do not play races who get over 5'8. Those who do are outliers, and there will always be outliers in the MMO playerbase. Also many who do wish they could make their characters shorter, as they are playing for facial aesthetic or racial aesthetic rather than the height.

There are shorter Garleans, so his height was a design choice, even if it was the easy route of using an Elezen frame. Likely shorter than most standard Garlean frames due to his custom robe/jacket making his back appear to be bent by age(despite being clones in physical youth).

If you ever play a male Roe or any race that is significantly taller than midlanders or the medium to short range of characters, then you'll notice that not every cutscene actually gets a good angle on your character, and sometimes your character completely blocks other NPCs that are supposed to be within the scene frame. It happens occasionally, even with Highlander men, usually due to armor choices. They don't plan around individuals, just the majority.

[Elladie]

Your interpretation of the Tempest doesn't really fit with what I remember of it (it has been a long time). The notable theme of Shakespeare's play is forgiveness; Prospero wants vengeance, and he is prepared to use whatever means necessary - including magic - but by the end he forgives, repudiates magic, and marries off his daughter to one of those he originally had no compunction about killing. Emet-Selch resembles Prospero very little; I have always taken the references to the play to relate more to the transient and magical existence of Amaurot as it parallels with Prospero's Island. It certainly never provoked any suspicion in me that Elai was once Hades' brother so I feel as though you're clutching at straws here.

That's not to say that Emet-Selch isn't Azem's brother; if that is the relationship between them that works for you, that's fine. I think the true nature of their relationship has been made deliberately fuzzy so that PCs can opt for the one that works for them. In the same way, Azem's name has never been clarified, so that we can pick the name that works for us. In my head canon, Azem's name was Echo (Greek nymph who loved Narcissus) and Hades was her husband. She and he were supposed to be the heart of a Zodiark/Hydaelyn summon, but she messed that up by refusing. She's been trying to put it right ever since. I can produce reams of 'evidence' for this, but it's only my personal theory, and I have no expectation of it turning out to be 'true'.

It's been left vague so that we can all frame it in terms that work for our own WoL

[akita_kt]

Isn't there an idea that Emet-Selch is all related to twin imagery? His constellation is Gemini, he's Nald'Thal (twin deities), he got a complete mask that looks like a funeral mask on his shoulders on his Hades form -- one identical to his, but complete and probably signifying someone dead. I do think there's something going on, I just don't know if Emet-Selch would be Azem's brother.

[Gothicshark]

Well it's an interesting perspective, and not far off of what I read into the character in retrospect.

Yes, it was personal, that much was clear. Yes, Azem and Emet-Selch had some kind of close social relationship. One could also say that Emet-Selch and Azem had a massive disagreement in the Ancient Past and the Hades fight was the conclusion of the Argument, and Emet-Selch was relieved to loose, which is why he set up aid for the future if the WOL won.

However the type of relationship is debatable and only Yoshi-P knows the answer.

My take was that they were lovers, but brothers works as well, hell even "Siblings of another mother" could work. What ever their relationship it was close and familiar in one way or another, They were more than work colleagues though.