Thread: What if in 7.0 they do what gw2 do for new clases

As an ex gw2 player, no.
I do wish SMN used a staff like FFX, rather than a book.

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

You also completely skipped over my first post which tells you there are alot more hoops to jump through than just sticking a new weapon on a job and calling it a day. There is alot of work that goes into making a job and really, their time would be better spent making a new job with it's own identity, rather than being say, Warrior but damage, or Dancer but healing.

I'm not skipping it over. What my post is saying is that some of the substantial hoops actually would be easily overcome by such a repurposing. They won't need to create new weapon templates/hitboxes. They won't need to create new armor templates or categories. They would have a basic moveset to level 30 to develop in a different direction (cutting somewhere downwards of a third of moveset development). And they could likely reuse a fair number of animations, or otherwise tweak them a bit.

Yes, there is a lot of work that goes into making a wholly unique job, but that is not what I am advocating for because unique jobs are becoming increasingly more development-heavy with (ymmv) decreasing returns. I would rather the devs inject new life into the base ARR jobs than kill themselves trying to develop new classes from scratch with a level 1-100 ability progression, on top of figuring out how to, yet again, add another 10 levels of complexity to classes which have already undergone tiered evolution 1, 2, 3, 4 times.

And even if they have it in them to make 2-ish more jobs at level 100, I would still be advocating for this to extend the lifespan of the game two years from now. If not right now, at some point the cost-benefit of eeking out new archetype niches versus building out already great classes is going to shift.

I'm not saying this is the only direction they can/should take the game, but I am saying that it would be a logical and totally reasonable move to make. At least as long as classes still exist. It's not like we have many solid options left for jobs, as Reaper and especially Sage demonstrate.I don't see a mystic or rune knight happening as long as we have RDM and BLU (given that elemental affinities aren't a thing in this game). Chemists already exist in the game as alchemists and honestly make more sense in that form because mixing and throwing crap on the battlefield does not fit well with XIV's distinction between combat and crafting classes. Beastmaster would likely be a limited job. Corsairs are a GC aesthetic accessible to any job.

With changes to AST and WHM I can see us possibly creating a niche for geomancers or chronomancers, so there's still *some* classic design space, but it's not much. I really like what the devs have managed to put out, but it can't last forever and it seems like we are approaching the end of good, original job design.

Two additional thoughts, to try and steer things in a more positive direction:

1) Anyone have a good idea of what a second "scouting" job could be? Seems like the deliberate separation of NIN gear from MNK/SAM might point toward where the devs think they can expand jobs.

2) Someone suggested "Judge" as a potential job in another thread and I think it would actually be a solid choice for an out-of-the-box design similar to GNB being an ode to VIII/XIII. Dual-wielded swords/daggers/maces that can combine into a staff. Some "rule" debuffs, make it function as kind of a time mage/green mage.

The system can work, in other games, but I think a lot of people have already said why it wouldn't be that good for here unless we were seeing some maaajor changes to the game (in order to properly facilitate whole new skill system and tangibly interesting choices).

With that said, for fun, I'm sure we could imagine a job that might do this. Like taking the FFXV swords, axes, shields, etc, flying and floating about, you might be able to wield many spiritual weapons and changing your main weapon would shift some of your kit around. Noctis the job lol. Fun part of that is it could theoretically be any role you wanted to design it for, as it'd be a mostly physical. non-elemental, psychic based motif with loads of weapons to call art from.

Or maybe they might make it FFXIV's Onion Knight, as a limited job, literally get to slot in different weapons (that then 'literally' show up in your spell arts). Switching to different main weapon causes you to switch to different set of skills, while 'background' skills are based on the entirety of your selection (so some skills are determined by your loadout in general and some are determined by which weapon you're 'maining' at that time). To make stacking and diversifying interesting might see a formula on weapon diversity such that you might get more powerful abilities if you stacked more weapons of a certain stat type but that the stats have a progressively ramped stat benefit such that the difference of 1 to 500 is not the same as 500 to 1000 and so having a high stat diversity may be seen as advantageous (while also granting a greater diversity of skills, almost like classic sub job systems), yet also having high stat stack unlocking deeper tier abilities on that stacked role would it's own advantages too.

Originally Posted by Shougun

The system can work, in other games, but I think a lot of people have already said why it wouldn't be that good for here unless we were seeing some maaajor changes to the game (in order to properly facilitate whole new skill system and tangibly interesting choices).

With that said, for fun, I'm sure we could imagine a job that might do this. Like taking the FFXV swords, axes, shields, etc, flying and floating about, you might be able to wield many spiritual weapons and changing your main weapon would shift some of your kit around. Noctis the job lol. Fun part of that is it could theoretically be any role you wanted to design it for, as it'd be a mostly physical. non-elemental, psychic based motif with loads of weapons to call art from.

Or maybe they might make it FFXIV's Onion Knight, as a limited job, literally get to slot in different weapons (that then 'literally' show up in your spell arts). Switching to different main weapon causes you to switch to different set of skills, while 'background' skills are based on the entirety of your selection (so some skills are determined by your loadout in general and some are determined by which weapon you're 'maining' at that time). To make stacking and diversifying interesting might see a formula on weapon diversity such that you might get more powerful abilities if you stacked more weapons of a certain stat type but that the stats have a progressively ramped stat benefit such that the difference of 1 to 500 is not the same as 500 to 1000 and so having a high stat diversity may be seen as advantageous (while also granting a greater diversity of skills, almost like classic sub job systems), yet also having high stat stack unlocking deeper tier abilities on that stacked role would it's own advantages too.

While I'm not opposed to this Noctis or Onion Knight concept, I imagine it would only work as a limited class, and only as one that "leeches" off of whatever classes you have already leveled, reusing abilities and weapons, instead of being its own distinct thing (outside of maybe a handful of flashy unique moves or weapons specific to the job).

I still think it would be overly complicated to deviate from the "one job, one weapon template" concept. I would concede to have a class change weapon at level 30 for a different job, but outside of a one-time swap I would never expect the developers to have to design more than one weapon type for any given job.

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

How stupid would a Dragoon using a sword look

What I am saying is if the new weapon reuses an old *template*, then the job can just appropriate animations from an existing class. To use your example, a Lancer job that, after level 30, uses a sword and shield and Paladin poses/animations. You are correct that using those templates for the base class abilities like true thrust would look weird, but we already have jobs that "upgrade" abilities. It wouldn't be totally out of place to just replace the "lance-y" moves at level thirty with different abilities, maybe even just using gladiator animations as a base.

Vastly different kits with the same base ideas.

The "same base ideas" of SMN and SCH have been substantially diverging with every expansion. As to whether a "blank slate" being easier to work with, I think that is quite subjective. To my mind, "White mage but tanky geomancer" or "Paladin but DPS mystic knight" practically write themselves.

Poeple want fresh new ideas.

You may be correct that totally new classes might be more popular and marketable, but I'm not arguing from popularity. I'm arguing from a) personal preference and b) development creep. But even so, I'm not sure where the balance actually lies. If we got, say, a geomancer that was 80-90% warrior but with greathammers and flashy new effects, I think that would be very well received. Even if players tend to be extremely critical of developers reusing assets, it really comes down to a matter of "perceived effort." Sure, one repurposed job seems lazy, but if we got say three, four, six of them (or maybe one totally new job and two retooled jobs), I think most reasonable players wouldn't complain.

Sage and Reaper, but how are they not solid options?

Sage and Reaper, while totally fine job designs in themselves, illustrate two things to me.

1) That the developers are running out of design space for "classic" FF jobs. Reaper might smack of XI Dark Knight with a bit of V Necromancer, and Sage might superficially resemble III's job, but they both feel at least equally "new concepts", if not more new than old.

2) Those new concepts are already running a little thin. Reaper is basically a fanservice job. And Sage is just...I don't get how/why a healer job needs floating laserguns. Reaper is really stretching the lore of the game to implausible limits, and Sage had, afaict, absolutely no precedent. They are *fine*. But they are not DRK/MCH/AST or SAM/RDM or even GNB/DNC, and I can only expect that future new jobs will only get more ridiculous.

As for a new job, it could wield a weapon akin to Zidane's Thief swords

Ah, like swords that combine into a staff? I guess I'm okay with the concept, though I would much rather it be used for "judge" class than a "thief" class. Especially since thieves don't really have an archetypal weapon across the FF series.

Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

2) Those new concepts are already running a little thin. Reaper is basically a fanservice job. And Sage is just...I don't get how/why a healer job needs floating laserguns. Reaper is really stretching the lore of the game to implausible limits, and Sage had, afaict, absolutely no precedent. They are *fine*. But they are not DRK/MCH/AST or SAM/RDM or even GNB/DNC, and I can only expect that future new jobs will only get more ridiculous..

You do realize that all of the 'good old jobs from previous Final Fantasy Games' were brand-spanking new at one time, right?

And you also realize that, while Final Fantasy XIV may have similarities with previous Final Fantasy titles, the job of the developers is not to recreate the feel of Final Fantasy III or Final Fantasy XI, right?

The game stands by itself, as every other title in the Final Fantasy genre does.

You can say "I am disappointed" or "I don't care for the new jobs", but "new jobs will only get more ridiculous" isn't a statement of fact. It's your response to the announcement of jobs for which you have little to no interest because ... nostalgia?

Originally Posted by DPZ2

It's your response to the announcement of jobs for which you have little to no interest because ... nostalgia?

If you are boiling my opinion down to pure nostalgia, you are vastly mischaracterizing me.

Although what I am observing is that not only is there a very vocal fanbase which *wants* nostalgia, not only have the developers leaned into fanservice, but that a lot of buzz surrounding XIV's "quality and "success" has somehow often coincided with pandering to classic Final Fantasy tropes. Whether we like it or not, referentialism is a huge factor in how XIV is perceived.

The way I see it, other than trials/raids, giving players their classic job fix is a huge part of holding their attention. You look at the chatter online for wanted/speculated new jobs, and it's 99 percent throwing around ideas based on old jobs. Call the fanbase unimaginative, but that is the predominant public discourse and what the devs see when considering what to implement each expansion.

And so, when I see the devs *deviating* from strict nostalgia--i.e. very safe, money-making design choices--I have to ask why they might be doing that.