Thread: What if in 7.0 they do what gw2 do for new clases

In the case of Reaper, I can find some justification: there is a lot of nostalgia for XI dark knight online and many requests for a scythe-wielding job. But that still isn't a "classic" job archetype, so either the discourse surrounding scythes was so proportionally massive that the devs couldn't ignore such a request. Which I don't see much evidence for because, while the discussions were there, they weren't overwhelming. Or, more likely, the other design options for "classic" melee jobs are just extremely weak. And that I can believe, because when we look at jobs like "Berserker" or "Viking" or "Mystic Knight" or "Rune Knight", we can already see most of those elements having been wrapped up in other jobs like Warrior or Red Mage. I don't see a "spellblade" type job being developed on its own, because most of its gimmicks like "enchanting a blade" or "negative status effects" have been taken over by Red Mage and Blue Mage; and without an elemental system, its primary en- gimmick would just amount to window-dressing. Sure it is possible, but the decision to go with reaper tells me the concept is weak.

The case of Sage is more striking to me, though. When you have so many discussions talking about wanting a Geomancer with a bell or hammer, or a Time Mage, or a Green Mage, or an Oracle, and the developers go with...floating laser guns...something which has *never* existed in any mainline FF game and really just feels pulled straight from a Monty Oum video. That tells me the developers are probably considering their nostalgia resources fairly tapped. Because they would rather shoehorn what feels like a *magical dps* weapon into a healing role than figure out how to implement any of several jobs that players have been actually saying they want.

Again, to reiterate. The new jobs are *fine*. They don't appeal much to my fantasy, but they are not bad (at least Reaper isn't bad, I need to see more of Sage to decide my opinion on it). But the fact that neither really hits clearly on our remaining classic job archetypes tells us something about where remaining design space is, I think.

Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

1. What I am saying is if the new weapon reuses an old *template*, then the job can just appropriate animations from an existing class. To use your example, a Lancer job that, after level 30, uses a sword and shield and Paladin poses/animations. You are correct that using those templates for the base class abilities like true thrust would look weird, but we already have jobs that "upgrade" abilities. It wouldn't be totally out of place to just replace the "lance-y" moves at level thirty with different abilities, maybe even just using gladiator animations as a base.2. The "same base ideas" of SMN and SCH have been substantially diverging with every expansion. As to whether a "blank slate" being easier to work with, I think that is quite subjective. To my mind, "White mage but tanky geomancer" or "Paladin but DPS mystic knight" practically write themselves.

3. You may be correct that totally new classes might be more popular and marketable, but I'm not arguing from popularity. I'm arguing from a) personal preference and b) development creep. But even so, I'm not sure where the balance actually lies. If we got, say, a geomancer that was 80-90% warrior but with greathammers and flashy new effects, I think that would be very well received. Even if players tend to be extremely critical of developers reusing assets, it really comes down to a matter of "perceived effort." Sure, one repurposed job seems lazy, but if we got say three, four, six of them (or maybe one totally new job and two retooled jobs), I think most reasonable players wouldn't complain.

4. Sage and Reaper, while totally fine job designs in themselves, illustrate two things to me.

1) That the developers are running out of design space for "classic" FF jobs. Reaper might smack of XI Dark Knight with a bit of V Necromancer, and Sage might superficially resemble III's job, but they both feel at least equally "new concepts", if not more new than old.

2) Those new concepts are already running a little thin. Reaper is basically a fanservice job. And Sage is just...I don't get how/why a healer job needs floating laserguns. Reaper is really stretching the lore of the game to implausible limits, and Sage had, afaict, absolutely no precedent. They are *fine*. But they are not DRK/MCH/AST or SAM/RDM or even GNB/DNC, and I can only expect that future new jobs will only get more ridiculous.

5. Ah, like swords that combine into a staff? I guess I'm okay with the concept, though I would much rather it be used for "judge" class than a "thief" class. Especially since thieves don't really have an archetypal weapon across the FF series.

1. Personally, having the same base animation with a different effect is lazy. It annoys me that Fated Circle for Gunbreaker has the same base animation as Demon Slaughter, just with a different effect, especially since there is a good base they could have used from Squall's Fated Circle from Dissidia. It would be the same here, noone would want gladiator dragoon.


2. Yes, that is the point. They have diverged so much from each other that they really don't share anything anymore. Arcanist has access to both Miasma and Bio DoTs, however Scholar doesn't have the Miasma DoT, Energy Drain serves 2 separate purposes on the 2 jobs etc. Scholar is so far removed from Summoner at this point, they might as well be separate. It was a mistake to have the branching path and I'm sure, if they were to loko at SUmmoner and Scholar from the start with the benefit of hindsight, they wouldn't have gone down this path in the first place.
3. Why have a job that is 80%-90% of another job. You would just feel like you are using that job, they wouldn't stand out from each other. If you want to just make a trait to change one ability to another, just have that new ability be the new base. We need jobs to feel unique and not just Warrior but elements, or Dragoon but sword.

4. There is nothing wrong with making new jobs, or reimagining old ones. You can't keep making 'classic' FF jobs forever and doing that also restricts the devs creativity. They need to branch out and do other things and who knows, jobs that make their start here could become classic FF jobs n the future.

5. In the original FF9, his thief swords did not split at the hilt, that was just something added in Dissidia to emulate those weapons.

Again, to reiterate. The new jobs are *fine*. They don't appeal much to my fantasy, but they are not bad (at least Reaper isn't bad, I need to see more of Sage to decide my opinion on it). But the fact that neither really hits clearly on our remaining classic job archetypes tells us something about where remaining design space is, I think.

They aren't bad, but they aren't classic FF jobs therefore they aren't going in the right direction. That is essentially what your argument here boils down to. Which is dumb. Every FF game that has a job system has made new jobs, why isn't FF14 allowed to do the same? You never know, the new sage look could spark creativity on newer games that have sage, rather than just being a Black Mage/Wahite Mage hybrid that also uses a staff. Let the team be creative, let them create the job
fantasies they want.

I wouldn't mind different branches such as Warrior of Light and Warrior of Darkness. For example, you could be a WoL Paladin or a WoD Paladin. It would help with the whole "balance" theme and all that.

Perhaps there would be a difference in animations for certain spells/skills or even specific abilities that either a WoL or WoD would get (like role types or limit breaks). Also, there could be changes in the story, specific quests you could undertake, and maybe even specific weapons/armor you could obtain depending on your branch. Due to all of this, it would also not be a decision that is easy to reverse (i.e. it would not be as simple as swapping out your weapon).

Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

And maybe if I actually thought the design was good I would see it as a thoroughly original

This is the crux of your argument. You don't like the design, therefore it isn't original. But how is it not? Sage hasn't really appeared in many FF games and between FF3/4 having one direction and the Tactics Advanced/A2 going a different direction, there is no reason FF14 cannot have their own spin on it. One of the main features of Sages are people that are wise, which is exactly what FF14 healers are. Wise in the healing arts and they have designed the Nouliths to focus their magic to help them achieve that goal, as stated by the Sage info from the Endwalkers promo website [https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/endwa..._6_0/job_sage].

I also think it is unfair to judge a job based on, what is essentially, nothing. So far IIRC we have seen, single target heal, 2 shields, AoE heal, single target damage and AoE damage. We don't know what else they have in their kit, what resource do they have and how does it affect how the job plays etc. With the media tour mid September, we should know more.

You also assume they have no other ideas. They might have had several ideas, they just wanted to do Sage first (though I suspect they come up with a concept, then name the job after) and, when the next healer comes along, they can go back to old ideas or by then, they might have had new ones. Saying you don't like the idea, therefore they have nothing is not a valid argument.

And to comment on the addendum. I highly doubt they used the nouliths to reference the 4 elemental crystals, probably more just 4 felt right to use. I guarantee they went through the process of, 'how many should they have' and they settled on 4.

GW2 weapon system is built completely different than ffxiv job system. In ffxiv everything is bundled with your job crystal/weapon with no room for customization, save for minor stat changes. In GW2 you instead have weapons, passives and skills that complement each other and can be shuffled around at will (with some restrictions due to elite specialisation and skill types).

Though would not have minded it if they gave us more linked classes such as arcanist with summoner/scholar. Have always wanted to play an "inquisitor" using conjuration to smite foes.

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

This is the crux of your argument. You don't like the design, therefore it isn't original. But how is it not? Sage hasn't really appeared in many FF games and between FF3/4 having one direction and the Tactics Advanced/A2 going a different direction, there is no reason FF14 cannot have their own spin on it. One of the main features of Sages are people that are wise, which is exactly what FF14 healers are. Wise in the healing arts and they have designed the Nouliths to focus their magic to help them achieve that goal, as stated by the Sage info from the Endwalkers promo website [https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/endwa..._6_0/job_sage].

Again, please stop misquoting me. I said I don't think the design is good (and explain why it doesn't come together for me), and that I don't see it as a clearly better alternative to existing archetypes. Reducing it to "you don't like it" and "therefore it isn't original" is massively over-simplifying.

I also think it is unfair to judge a job based on, what is essentially, nothing. So far IIRC we have seen, single target heal, 2 shields, AoE heal, single target damage and AoE damage. We don't know what else they have in their kit, what resource do they have and how does it affect how the job plays etc. With the media tour mid September, we should know more.

As a healing job, I think it is absolutely fair to judge a job on whether what we have seen feels like a healer, or if it feels like it fleshes out the world-building/fantasy well. If it makes you feel better though, I spent most of last evening digesting the idea of Sage and I seem to be approaching indifference in the same vein as Reaper.

Though I am pretty sure that what is still sticking for me is the nouliths themselves, or at least their design. Laser-swords. I mean yeah you can come up with analogues in medical technology, but should jobs have to stretch that far to explain themselves? The design is either esoteric on a level that makes Sage several leagues deeper than any other job in the game, or is the shallowest job in the game amounting to spectacle and pew-pew lasers.

Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

GW2 weapon system is built completely different than ffxiv job system. In ffxiv everything is bundled with your job crystal/weapon with no room for customization, save for minor stat changes. In GW2 you instead have weapons, passives and skills that complement each other and can be shuffled around at will (with some restrictions due to elite specialisation and skill types).

Though would not have minded it if they gave us more linked classes such as arcanist with summoner/scholar. Have always wanted to play an "inquisitor" using conjuration to smite foes.

One of the things they've been doing with this game is essentially making it simpler. They did simplification on the Armory system going from 1.0 to 2.0. Since then other things were removed such as actual cross class skills that were selected from a pool that unlocked by leveling specific jobs, the 1 or 2 assignable stat points at level up was removed as these were only earned on the first job to reach that level, they made MP pool a static value regardless of level and removed TP entirely, various buffs and debuffs from player skills removed that relied on specific damage types, etc...

They said they had some issues with the whole SMN/SCH both branching from ARC and as such made no plans to have any other base class branch into 2 different roles then later with HW essentially removed the need of core classes on any new jobs from that point onward.

Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Again, please stop misquoting me. I said I don't think the design is good (and explain why it doesn't come together for me), and that I don't see it as a clearly better alternative to existing archetypes. Reducing it to "you don't like it" and "therefore it isn't original" is massively over-simplifying.

I will start by saying, I did cut your quote off a bit early, and the extra info does change the context slightly, however, saying you don't think a design is good is implying that the design is bad. You then say, because the design is 'not good' you therefore don't see it as an original concept and would have prefered a different job. This is all coming under your point that starts " As a matter of resonance, referentiality, fanservice, they seem to be struggling to find easy, marketable concepts to implement."

You have used your own personal bias towards a job aestheitc to say it is bad as a point to show that the team are running out of easily fanserviceable jobs. However, just because you do not like the aesthetic and you don't find it appealing doesn't mean that others do not. It is their content to get excited about, not yours. I personally wasn't too keen on the aesthetic of Dancer, it isn't a job I personally would have wanted, however I'm not going to use that to say they should have added X/Y/Z instead, or use it as a basis to say they are running out of ideas.

The jobs appeal to someone, that someone doesn't always have to be you. It is fine to not like it, but don't use it as an excuse to say they are running out of ideas/lack fanservice etc.