New Gear... for class only? [Glaring Issue] [Request]

[Dzian]

I might take an arc and one bard, to maximize the arc's single target dps and retain party support from the bard..

why would you do that when a second bard buff will have a greater impact on the whole party's performance than 1 arcs invigorate or keen flurry.

ARC though can do a ton more damage than BRD just by having access to LNC abilities

a single brd will out damage a single archer through his dps alone, as i said earlier paon of war lets you spam the hell out of your 10 sec skills while waiting on combo timers. 1 blood for blood in 60 seconds cant match 3 or 4 extra gloom arrows or heavy shots from paons tp boost in the same time span. and rain of death is also awesome damage which you can spam quite easily as its quite easy to sit on 3000 tp even spamming the hell out of every skill you have
and if the bards in a party at the same time as being able to do more damage than an arc he will boost the dps of the entire party with his songs.

if for example you were to say a brd song increases a dds dps by 5% and you have 5 dds in the party then a brd brings 125% of an archers dps to the party. if a second brd brings another song and that also a 5% boost on a dds dps. then those 2 brds are bringing 50% more dps to the party than 2 arcs. or 25% more dps than 1 brd and 1 arc.

[Rykan]

This is not FFXI. This is FFXIV. I'm sorry to disappoint you with this information, but it's a reality you are just going to have to accept. You don't want SE to try new stuff? Then, what's going to draw people in? Pretty graphics aren't all that makes a game, and if the content in the game is all just copy & paste, why not play a cheaper/free game? If everyone lived by "Oh, that's new, I won't touch it." We'd still be in caves, with pointed sticks.

Also, if you'd stop looking at classes and jobs doing the same thing, I'm sure you'd find that they really don't. In the case of Lancer and Dragoon, Dragoon trades off it's survivability for extra damage and TP gain. Whereas staying on Lancer gives you better survivability through cures, stoneskin, etc.

To be honest, LNC/DRG are the only things I can say this with and know I'm right, so anything beyond this, I'd love for someone who knows to be able to correct me.

Marauder and Warrior. I'm not too sure that Warrior loses anything at the moment, but after 1.22b, it may be a trade-off between damage and tanking ability.

Archer and Bard. Well, Archer is straight DPS while Bard is more support. I'd assume that while doing your songs, you won't be attacking or using weaponskills, thus lowering your DPS in order to support your party.

Conjurer and White Mage. Conjurer is able to be a very good magic-using DD, while White Mage takes away abilities to augment that damage for better healing abilities.

Thaumaturge and Black Mage. See Lancer above....

I have nothing for verification on this, so I also apologize if this is incorrect.
I believe it has been said by one of the devs that classes are here to stay. If you want jobs only, go back to FFXI. Complaining about things like this, while not adding anything that would be a reasonable fix, and would also not make the people working on this game go completely batty, is cluttering up our forums that are supposed to be used for the betterment of our communities, and the game.

I realize this is my first post, but for everyone's information, my brother and friend both have accounts. I've been watching and playing this game since the launch; so, don't dismiss my input.

Anyway, I love how you added that last sentence about "See lancer above" for CNJ and THM...You know why that's so funny? I'll tell you why:

It's hilarious because it just shows everyone how UNINVENTIVE this stupid class--->job system is, and how imperative it is to REPLACE it. Pretty much EVERY class trades off survivability for "better dmg/tp/spam, etc." Archers, Marauders, Gladiators, Lancers, Thaumaturges, and so on were ALL curing themselves to hell, spamming themselves in stoneskin, protecting themselves, Bloodbath-ing, Second Wind-ing, etc. So, what other choice did SE have with jobs, other than trading off survivability for what the da$% job's actual role is lol...

Jobs, as they are now, are just SE's DESPERATE attempt at salvaging this really big fail of a system. They didn't have the heart to phase classes out completely, so instead they created "Jobs" that work the way classes should have worked in the first place. The only Archers, Marauders, and Lancers that should have been curing/stoneskin-ing/protecting themselves are the ones that are "dumb enough" to "sub whm."

The Armoury System is garbage. SE made a very NOBLE effort at innovation, and kudos for trying so hard, but it just is...not......working.........................

Any chance we had for being unique is thrown completely out the window. Every Dragoon is just a carbon copy of any other Dragoon, as is every other choice. At least with XI, although /nin ruined it, there was an OPPORTUNITY to be different than the next guy. If they DID embrace a system SIMILAR to FFXI (NOT a carbon copy) , then this game might have a chance. I'm telling you right now, though, if you can't get the hell over your anti-XI, hater mentality, then these issues will never be resolved.

[Eliseus]

I realize this is my first post, but for everyone's information, my brother and friend both have accounts. I've been watching and playing this game since the launch; so, don't dismiss my input.

Anyway, I love how you added that last sentence about "See lancer above" for CNJ and THM...You know why that's so funny? I'll tell you why:

It's hilarious because it just shows everyone how UNINVENTIVE this stupid class--->job system is, and how imperative it is to REPLACE it. Pretty much EVERY class trades off survivability for "better dmg/tp/spam, etc." Archers, Marauders, Gladiators, Lancers, Thaumaturges, and so on were ALL curing themselves to hell, spamming themselves in stoneskin, protecting themselves, Bloodbath-ing, Second Wind-ing, etc. So, what other choice did SE have with jobs, other than trading off survivability for what the da$% job's actual role is lol...

Jobs, as they are now, are just SE's DESPERATE attempt at salvaging this really big fail of a system. They didn't have the heart to phase classes out completely, so instead they created "Jobs" that work the way classes should have worked in the first place. The only Archers, Marauders, and Lancers that should have been curing/stoneskin-ing/protecting themselves are the ones that are "dumb enough" to "sub whm."

The Armoury System is garbage. SE made a very NOBLE effort at innovation, and kudos for trying so hard, but it just is...not......working.........................

Any chance we had for being unique is thrown completely out the window. Every Dragoon is just a carbon copy of any other Dragoon, as is every other choice. At least with XI, although /nin ruined it, there was an OPPORTUNITY to be different than the next guy. If they DID embrace a system SIMILAR (not a carbon copy) to FFXI, then this game might have a chance. I'm telling you right now, though, if you can't get the hell over your anti-XI, hater mentality, then these issues will never be resolved.

Exactly, people don't understand though, they have the "If you want FFXI go play FFXI" attitude way to much, most of them don't even realize that obviously people want ffxi stuff in this game or it wouldn't be brought up so much. Since I've been playing the majority of stuff people talk about is what they miss in FFXI. Sadly, though some people disagree, the majority of the people (the ones that matter) seem to want essentially this game to be a better version of FFXI, a chance to remake something that a lot of people liked even better and really, SE can take advantage of this. Still the very few people that don't even matter think that these players opinions don't matter and simply say "If you want FFXI go play FFXI." FFXI did the job system right, this game although not bad, is worse, they played with a little, now time to revamp it to something better. That is just my 2c and I know I will get trolled from it by some random but w/e.

[Ulric]

I'm telling you right now, though, if you can't get the hell over your anti-XI, hater mentality, then these issues will never be resolved.

I'm not anti-XI. I'm fine if they take things from it, but I don't want to be playing FFXI again. If I did, I'd be playing it. I agree that the armoury system could be better, but tell me this, could you do better than what's being done now? At the moment, the game is being salvaged from a failed attempt, and I'm fairly certain that the current team is working on a deadline with 2.0, same as the original team was working on one when the game was first released. Something like reworking the armoury system, I'm sure would be unable to be done, along with everything else required of them before 2.0 comes out.

Personally, I think the armoury system is fine. You don't, that's okay. Your opinion, you're entitled to it.

[Rykan]

I'm not anti-XI. I'm fine if they take things from it, but I don't want to be playing FFXI again. If I did, I'd be playing it. I agree that the armoury system could be better, but tell me this, could you do better than what's being done now? At the moment, the game is being salvaged from a failed attempt, and I'm fairly certain that the current team is working on a deadline with 2.0, same as the original team was working on one when the game was first released. Something like reworking the armoury system, I'm sure would be unable to be done, along with everything else required of them before 2.0 comes out.

Personally, I think the armoury system is fine. You don't, that's okay. Your opinion, you're entitled to it.

Actually, yes I think I could come up with something right off the top of my head. Nobody wants a FINISHED product, right away. We just want the "hope" of something new to come. I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH:

IF Yoshi-P will simply make some indication that he is unhappy with the state of the Armoury System, and plans to pretty much revamp it from the ground up, it might make us all "settle down" a bit. However, he seems to just be making slight adjustments to the existing system. In fact, it's actually gotten worse in many ways. It was a lot more fun when classes had access to ANY actions from other lvl'd classes.

While it was pretty much mandatory for ppl to lvl every class (assuming you wanted to be any use at all), at least it was somewhat "rare" to see ppl w/ all the tier II buffs. Now, with this "lvls w/ you as you go action" you just have to lvl the class high enough to GET the action, and then simply port it over to your high lvl class (as long as it's available). You don't even have to bother getting cnj past lvl 4, and your lvl 50 MRD can take full advantage of it. It is the STUPIDIST idea they've pumped out since Day 1.

Edit: P.S. What happened to all the feedback Yoshi got from us back in that first player poll?

"Would you welcome changes to FFXIV that would drastically alter the rules already set in Eorzea?"

I clicked "Yes." So did some 65+ percent of the voters....

[Ulric]

IF Yoshi-P will simply make some indication that he is unhappy with the state of the Armoury System, and plans to pretty much revamp it from the ground up, it might make us all "settle down" a bit. However, he seems to just be making slight adjustments to the existing system. In fact, it's actually gotten worse in many ways.
.

What if he isn't unhappy with the armoury system?

While it was pretty much mandatory for ppl to lvl every class (assuming you wanted to be any use at all), at least it was somewhat "rare" to see ppl w/ all the tier II buffs. Now, with this "lvls w/ you as you go action" you just have to lvl the class high enough to GET the action, and then simply port it over to your high lvl class (as long as it's available). You don't even have to bother getting cnj past lvl 4, and your lvl 50 MRD can take full advantage of it. It is the STUPIDIST idea they've pumped out since Day 1.

As true as that is, the abilities are generally not as effective as they are on their native class. Compare a Marauder's Cure to a Conjurer or White Mage's, I guarantee you'll notice a pretty big difference. On top of that, we can only equip 10 cross class abilities, and having those extra spells would ruin it. Hell, the native abilities on CON/WHM/THM/BLM would take up more than the action bar is currently able to hold, leaving you with no options for other abilities.

The only Archers, Marauders, and Lancers that should have been curing/stoneskin-ing/protecting themselves are the ones that are "dumb enough" to "sub whm."

This totally just flew by my head on your last post. I hope you're not serious about this.

Any chance we had for being unique is thrown completely out the window. Every Dragoon is just a carbon copy of any other Dragoon, as is every other choice. At least with XI, although /nin ruined it, there was an OPPORTUNITY to be different than the next guy.

Would you mind explaining this? In FFXI, everyone wore the same gear, with all the same abilities. If they didn't, they were trying to. In this, the only thing that this may apply to is AF. And so what if everyone wears their AF? It's their choice. It's also not their only choice. And that's just gear! Look at the abilities.

Edit: P.S. What happened to all the feedback Yoshi got from us back in that first player poll?

"Would you welcome changes to FFXIV that would drastically alter the rules already set in Eorzea?"

2.0

I really hope you don't expect that stuff to change overnight, when there's already a date planned for those big changes.

[Krausus]

why would you do that when a second bard buff will have a greater impact on the whole party's performance than 1 arcs invigorate or keen flurry.

a single brd will out damage a single archer through his dps alone, as i said earlier paon of war lets you spam the hell out of your 10 sec skills while waiting on combo timers. 1 blood for blood in 60 seconds cant match 3 or 4 extra gloom arrows or heavy shots from paons tp boost in the same time span. and rain of death is also awesome damage which you can spam quite easily as its quite easy to sit on 3000 tp even spamming the hell out of every skill you have
and if the bards in a party at the same time as being able to do more damage than an arc he will boost the dps of the entire party with his songs.

if for example you were to say a brd song increases a dds dps by 5% and you have 5 dds in the party then a brd brings 125% of an archers dps to the party. if a second brd brings another song and that also a 5% boost on a dds dps. then those 2 brds are bringing 50% more dps to the party than 2 arcs. or 25% more dps than 1 brd and 1 arc.

Im talking BRD vs ARC only not how much of a DPS boost a BRD will bring to a party since you know this is about solo play. I know a few BRD that would very much disagree with you.

[Dzian]

Im talking BRD vs ARC only not how much of a DPS boost a BRD will bring to a party since you know this is about solo play. I know a few BRD that would very much disagree with you.

Even solo brd wins.

but a bard will out damage an archer with paeon of war and rain of death even on single targets.

keen flurry and invigorate cannot compete with the ability to spam your 10second skills repeatedly even without comboing them. and rain of death just pwns

[Krausus]

Even solo brd wins.

Like I said I know a few BRD that would very much disagree with you, I'm not gonna just take your word for it.

[Viritess]

I'll just repost this since i think its the best cure for Class vs job issues. The thread this post is from is mostly about adding more jobs. But the class mechanics i suggest work without additional jobs. Enjoy.

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You could also add skills to each class that removes the "role" of classes, and have jobs add some skills and then allow those jobs to choose from the "focused" list of skills. For example

Lancer is a DD class and Dragoon is a DD Job. If you added skills for Lancer that gave it a tanking role but barred Dragoon from using Tanking skills you would build not only a use for Lancer itself (you could tank or DD with it) But also preserve the DRagoon job focus (DD specializeation)

If this was done with every class GLD, MRD, CNJ (Heals/DD) etc then not only would current jobs be a specialization/improvement on a specific focus. But also open up the basis for additional jobs that occupy a different role.

Maybe a a new job from Lancer could be a long staff using tanking job. And by equipping a longstaff this class can choose from a defined list of lancer abilities mostly consisting of the tanking type plus the skills that are rewarded by being this longstaff user.

And as far as a Dark Knight goes. By adding DD and tanking abilities to base classes you can now add greatsword as DK only Job weapons and say you choose GLD as the "Base" class you now have a choice of mostly DD skills for the DK while PLD gets choice mostly from the Tanking GLD skills.

ANd classes servive because though not specialized they can DD and tank. Switch as needed but not do as well as the jobs.

You get specialization with Jobs and a focused choice of class carry-over skills. And job specific skills.

You get versatility of Role and skill selection with classes but not quite the focused power from jobs. But you can Tank of DD with your GLD, or Lancer, or MRD.