Increasing number of players using 3rd party tools

[Snorky]

Everybody keeps talking about this point, but to me this seems theoretical because overwhelming majority of wipes or other issues that would involve criticism are people repeatedly failing mechanics on endgame content or not playing their job properly on casual content (tanks not using CDs, healers not using all their healing toolkit, being way under-geared etc). Discussing somebody's low damage should happen after failing to beat enrage (unless somebody is doing so poorly everybody that see that decide the party is a lost cause and suddenly "have to go"), and even then low DPS in this game in kill party still more likely due to someone not being familiar with mechanics and losing uptime, rather than not knowing their job.

So this leaves only people that are clearly not knowing how to play their job and unwilling to learn, just looking to be carried. Maybe its just my experience but such people are rare in EU, and as I understand even more rare in JP.

This is a fallacy argument, you as another player have no right to discuss anything about how someone plays the game period. There are circumstances where you organized the party or it's your group of friends where you can talk freely.

But when you q up for the DF or PF with strangers you have no right to call others out. The point has gone over your head, people will and can and have abused others because they are using these programs and I will remind you they are against the rules.

This is my last comment here, there is no debate because it's against SE policy. People who use these programs use them at their own risk'. Personally I don't care as long as you keep it to yourself.

[Somnolence]

This is a fallacy argument, you as another player have no right to discuss anything about how someone plays the game period.

If we talking about damage then this is endgame content and PF. There are minimal expectations for people participating in this context, wasting other people time is toxic.

Because of TOS nobody is criticizing anybody in game already. People that are deemed deadweights for whatever reason just get silently ghosted. Parties disband or they get kicked. And FFXIV community gets to pat each other on the back how nice they are. Is this better?

Both this situation and the gray area on third parties is because of the same reason - Square Enix only cares about maximizing money ergo they want to get sub money from both casuals and hardcores.

[Jadedsins]

If we talking about damage then this is endgame content and PF. There are minimal expectations for people participating in this context, wasting other people time is toxic.

Because of TOS nobody is criticizing anybody in game already. People that are deemed deadweights for whatever reason just get silently ghosted. Parties disband or they get kicked. And FFXIV community gets to pat each other on the back how nice they are. Is this better?

Yes it is much better. Because a failed group is not that big of a deal, You are playing an mmorpg so your time is being wasted just by playing the game. So if you value your time so much. Not sure why you would play a mmorpg. If progression is the only enjoyment you get, well that is rough.

I mean can you really argue with the results? Group disbanding is better than taking anger out on each other in game. I rather people not say nothing at all, than throw a hissy fit because your time is wasted. It is not that big of a deal to have a bad group.

[Somnolence]

Yes it is much better. Because a failed group is not that big of a deal, You are playing an mmorpg so your time is being wasted just by playing the game. So if you value your time so much. Not sure why you would play a mmorpg. If progression is the only enjoyment you get, well that is rough.

I mean can you really argue with the results? Group disbanding is better than taking anger out on each other in game. I rather people not say nothing at all, than throw a hissy fit because your time is wasted. It is not that big of a deal to have a bad group.

In this context, wasted time means group does few pulls, disbands then waits 30 min in PF to refill. If this is not annoying to you then it seems you are not doing this kind of content.

[Caitlyn]

In this context, wasted time means group does few pulls, disbands then waits 30 min in PF to refill. If this is not annoying to you then it seems you are not doing this kind of content.

Omega 11 Savage in PF! I just waited 3 hours to fill a group! If I was forced to abandon the entire group, just because of one random dude, I would stop raiding entirely!

Just chucking my 2 cents into the void again now that the topic has shifted to calling people out:

Is it okay to address someone's performance in a negative manner by bringing up numbers and shaming them publicly? Absolutely not.

However, addressing issues during a run with politeness and constructive criticism(especially if someone asks for help) should be something that is encouraged.

Insults are never ok. I guess we can all agree to that.

The problem is: If the game doesnt provide any feedback about players performance, the player itself have to do that. Not hard to understand, right?

[LianaThorne]

Omega 11 Savage in PF! I just waited 3 hours to fill a group! If I was forced to abandon the entire group, just because of one random dude, I would stop raiding entirely!




Insults are never ok. I guess we can all agree to that.

The problem is: If the game doesnt provide any feedback about players performance, the player have to do that. Not hard to understand, right?

Please read my 3rd paragraph. I said it should be encouraged. However, it is not your job to parent anyone and bringing it up in a manner that isn't polite or constructive won't solve the problem you're looking to solve. If someone is literally ignoring you or trolling then vote kick and move forward with your day.

There's also the old reliable method of doing content with your FC/friends that you already know the skill range of if randoms performing poorly is something that is bothersome.

[Caitlyn]

Please read my 3rd paragraph. I said it should be encouraged. However, it is not your job to parent anyone and bringing it up in a manner that isn't polite or constructive won't solve the problem you're looking to solve. If someone is literally ignoring you or trolling then vote kick and move forward with your day.

There's also the old reliable method of doing content with your FC/friends that you already know the skill range of if randoms performing poorly is something that is bothersome.

Not to parent anyone. But what choice do we have? If I see someone who is performing extremely low, I would talk to him and try to help him.
But just by saying: "Your damage is pretty low", I can be reported for a) using a third party tool and b) somehow insulting or whatever.
So I keep my mouth shut and have to watch when some "mentor" making the situation even worse.

Sure, its not my job to play the big teacher for each underperformer. But its an MMORPG and i want to communicate and interact with other people.

Bad apples always happens. It feels like you want the people who wasted your time to be held accountable for it. You are right it is a mmorpg. When you go into a group prebuilt of strangers. That is the risk you took, and if someone wants to play bad in that group. Well within right to do so. That is the risk that balances out how easy it is to make a group. You also have the tools to increase your success chance, if you don't want to take the risk.

I wont punish 6 other people by abandon a good group, just because of one underperformer.

[Caitlyn]

But when you q up for the DF or PF with strangers you have no right to call others out. The point has gone over your head, people will and can and have abused others because they are using these programs and I will remind you they are against the rules.

And what if one player refuses to play properly just for the luls?

Lets say, you re in a 24-man raid and one player just prefers to watch Netflix and wants to get carried. He uses Auto Attacks, sometimes a skill and no one would ever notice.
You re telling me, I have no right to call out those kind of players?

Another example. You re opening a PF for a primal kill. But even with no deaths and no fails, the boss wipe the raid at 2%. Again and again.
Now, you have to choose: Call out the weakspot of the group and replace him (when needed). Or abandon the whole group, because you cant find the issue without a parser.

It should be legit to call out other players, when they dont doing the job properly. "Call outs" shouldnt contain insults, of course.
But I find it way worse if someone troll or hinder the party, than somebody who is talking about some numbers.

I mean can you really argue with the results? Group disbanding is better than taking anger out on each other in game. I rather people not say nothing at all, than throw a hissy fit because your time is wasted. It is not that big of a deal to have a bad group.

It is not. Yes, its a MMORPG. But that doesnt mean, that anyone got the right to waste the time of other people on purpose. If you re not doing your job, you dont deserve your place in your party. Simple.

Group disbanding is worse than kicking out the only person one who is responsible for wasting other peoples time. And thats the case in reality. Any partyfinder will kick you, if you re not doing your job.

So this leaves only people that are clearly not knowing how to play their job and unwilling to learn, just looking to be carried. Maybe its just my experience but such people are rare in EU, and as I understand even more rare in JP.

JP must be a dream. JP players even formed a waiting queue for Raubahn Savage. I cant imagine how raiding must be.

[Jadedsins]

And what if one player refuses to play properly just for the luls?

Lets say, you re in a 24-man raid and one player just prefers to watch Netflix and wants to get carried. He uses Auto Attacks, sometimes a skill and no one would ever notice.
You re telling me, I have no right to call out those kind of players?

Another example. You re opening a PF for a primal kill. But even with no deaths and no fails, the boss wipe the raid at 2%. Again and again.
Now, you have to choose: Call out the weakspot of the group and replace him (when needed). Or abandon the whole group, because you cant find the issue without a parser.

It should be legit to call out other players, when they dont doing the job properly. "Call outs" shouldnt contain insults, of course.
But I find it way worse if someone troll or hinder the party, than somebody who is talking about some numbers.




It is not. Yes, its a MMORPG. But that doesnt mean, that anyone got the right to waste the time of other people on purpose. If you re not doing your job, you dont deserve your place in your party. Simple.

Group disbanding is worse than kicking out the only person one who is responsible for wasting other peoples time. And thats the case in reality. Any partyfinder will kick you, if you re not doing your job.

Bad apples always happens. It feels like you want the people who wasted your time to be held accountable for it. You are right it is a mmorpg. When you go into a group prebuilt of strangers. That is the risk you took, and if someone wants to play bad in that group. Well within right to do so. That is the risk that balances out how easy it is to make a group. You also have the tools to increase your success chance, if you don't want to take the risk.