Increasing number of players using 3rd party tools

[Somnolence]

people will use these helpful tools to abuse others and shame them or just be miserable.

Everybody keeps talking about this point, but to me this seems theoretical because overwhelming majority of wipes or other issues that would involve criticism are people repeatedly failing mechanics on endgame content or not playing their job properly on casual content (tanks not using CDs, healers not using all their healing toolkit, being way under-geared etc). Discussing somebody's low damage should happen after failing to beat enrage (unless somebody is doing so poorly everybody that see that decide the party is a lost cause and suddenly "have to go"), and even then low DPS in this game in kill party still more likely due to someone not being familiar with mechanics and losing uptime, rather than not knowing their job.

So this leaves only people that are clearly not knowing how to play their job and unwilling to learn, just looking to be carried. Maybe its just my experience but such people are rare in EU, and as I understand even more rare in JP.

[Snorky]

Everybody keeps talking about this point, but to me this seems theoretical because overwhelming majority of wipes or other issues that would involve criticism are people repeatedly failing mechanics on endgame content or not playing their job properly on casual content (tanks not using CDs, healers not using all their healing toolkit, being way under-geared etc). Discussing somebody's low damage should happen after failing to beat enrage (unless somebody is doing so poorly everybody that see that decide the party is a lost cause and suddenly "have to go"), and even then low DPS in this game in kill party still more likely due to someone not being familiar with mechanics and losing uptime, rather than not knowing their job.

So this leaves only people that are clearly not knowing how to play their job and unwilling to learn, just looking to be carried. Maybe its just my experience but such people are rare in EU, and as I understand even more rare in JP.

This is a fallacy argument, you as another player have no right to discuss anything about how someone plays the game period. There are circumstances where you organized the party or it's your group of friends where you can talk freely.

But when you q up for the DF or PF with strangers you have no right to call others out. The point has gone over your head, people will and can and have abused others because they are using these programs and I will remind you they are against the rules.

This is my last comment here, there is no debate because it's against SE policy. People who use these programs use them at their own risk'. Personally I don't care as long as you keep it to yourself.

[Somnolence]

This is a fallacy argument, you as another player have no right to discuss anything about how someone plays the game period.

If we talking about damage then this is endgame content and PF. There are minimal expectations for people participating in this context, wasting other people time is toxic.

Because of TOS nobody is criticizing anybody in game already. People that are deemed deadweights for whatever reason just get silently ghosted. Parties disband or they get kicked. And FFXIV community gets to pat each other on the back how nice they are. Is this better?

Both this situation and the gray area on third parties is because of the same reason - Square Enix only cares about maximizing money ergo they want to get sub money from both casuals and hardcores.

[Jadedsins]

If we talking about damage then this is endgame content and PF. There are minimal expectations for people participating in this context, wasting other people time is toxic.

Because of TOS nobody is criticizing anybody in game already. People that are deemed deadweights for whatever reason just get silently ghosted. Parties disband or they get kicked. And FFXIV community gets to pat each other on the back how nice they are. Is this better?

Yes it is much better. Because a failed group is not that big of a deal, You are playing an mmorpg so your time is being wasted just by playing the game. So if you value your time so much. Not sure why you would play a mmorpg. If progression is the only enjoyment you get, well that is rough.

I mean can you really argue with the results? Group disbanding is better than taking anger out on each other in game. I rather people not say nothing at all, than throw a hissy fit because your time is wasted. It is not that big of a deal to have a bad group.

[Caitlyn]

But when you q up for the DF or PF with strangers you have no right to call others out. The point has gone over your head, people will and can and have abused others because they are using these programs and I will remind you they are against the rules.

And what if one player refuses to play properly just for the luls?

Lets say, you re in a 24-man raid and one player just prefers to watch Netflix and wants to get carried. He uses Auto Attacks, sometimes a skill and no one would ever notice.
You re telling me, I have no right to call out those kind of players?

Another example. You re opening a PF for a primal kill. But even with no deaths and no fails, the boss wipe the raid at 2%. Again and again.
Now, you have to choose: Call out the weakspot of the group and replace him (when needed). Or abandon the whole group, because you cant find the issue without a parser.

It should be legit to call out other players, when they dont doing the job properly. "Call outs" shouldnt contain insults, of course.
But I find it way worse if someone troll or hinder the party, than somebody who is talking about some numbers.

I mean can you really argue with the results? Group disbanding is better than taking anger out on each other in game. I rather people not say nothing at all, than throw a hissy fit because your time is wasted. It is not that big of a deal to have a bad group.

It is not. Yes, its a MMORPG. But that doesnt mean, that anyone got the right to waste the time of other people on purpose. If you re not doing your job, you dont deserve your place in your party. Simple.

Group disbanding is worse than kicking out the only person one who is responsible for wasting other peoples time. And thats the case in reality. Any partyfinder will kick you, if you re not doing your job.

So this leaves only people that are clearly not knowing how to play their job and unwilling to learn, just looking to be carried. Maybe its just my experience but such people are rare in EU, and as I understand even more rare in JP.

JP must be a dream. JP players even formed a waiting queue for Raubahn Savage. I cant imagine how raiding must be.

[Jadedsins]

And what if one player refuses to play properly just for the luls?

Lets say, you re in a 24-man raid and one player just prefers to watch Netflix and wants to get carried. He uses Auto Attacks, sometimes a skill and no one would ever notice.
You re telling me, I have no right to call out those kind of players?

Another example. You re opening a PF for a primal kill. But even with no deaths and no fails, the boss wipe the raid at 2%. Again and again.
Now, you have to choose: Call out the weakspot of the group and replace him (when needed). Or abandon the whole group, because you cant find the issue without a parser.

It should be legit to call out other players, when they dont doing the job properly. "Call outs" shouldnt contain insults, of course.
But I find it way worse if someone troll or hinder the party, than somebody who is talking about some numbers.




It is not. Yes, its a MMORPG. But that doesnt mean, that anyone got the right to waste the time of other people on purpose. If you re not doing your job, you dont deserve your place in your party. Simple.

Group disbanding is worse than kicking out the only person one who is responsible for wasting other peoples time. And thats the case in reality. Any partyfinder will kick you, if you re not doing your job.

Bad apples always happens. It feels like you want the people who wasted your time to be held accountable for it. You are right it is a mmorpg. When you go into a group prebuilt of strangers. That is the risk you took, and if someone wants to play bad in that group. Well within right to do so. That is the risk that balances out how easy it is to make a group. You also have the tools to increase your success chance, if you don't want to take the risk.

[Jadedsins]

Everybody keeps talking about this point, but to me this seems theoretical because overwhelming majority of wipes or other issues that would involve criticism are people repeatedly failing mechanics on endgame content or not playing their job properly on casual content (tanks not using CDs, healers not using all their healing toolkit, being way under-geared etc). Discussing somebody's low damage should happen after failing to beat enrage (unless somebody is doing so poorly everybody that see that decide the party is a lost cause and suddenly "have to go"), and even then low DPS in this game in kill party still more likely due to someone not being familiar with mechanics and losing uptime, rather than not knowing their job.

So this leaves only people that are clearly not knowing how to play their job and unwilling to learn, just looking to be carried. Maybe its just my experience but such people are rare in EU, and as I understand even more rare in JP.

We seen it happen in other mmorpgs, and how the community is shaped. If we allow said tools in this game, it would not only shape the community to be more toxic to each other. It would put more pressure on people just doing DF, and the game would have to be balanced around thinking players are using them.

This kills me because I see many of the same people who defend using these say they want harder content. Whaaattthef#ck! You are using programs that tell you when things will happen so are prepared for it instead of learning the fight with your mind. Or using your mind to recognize what is happening. So..where is the sense in that?

Yup, that is pretty much it. That is why the developers ignore the feedback they give.

[ForteNightshade]

people will use these helpful tools to abuse others and shame them or just be miserable.

And they would swiftly banned for doing so. In theory at least. This is often what gets overlooked in why WoW had so many problems with add ons, DPS meters and so forth. They literally did nothing to punish players who berated and harassed others. The tools themselves aren't going to cause toxicity to suddenly run rampant despite what many think. It's the minority of jerks being allowed to do as they please that would.

[Jadedsins]

And they would swiftly banned for doing so. In theory at least. This is often what gets overlooked in why WoW had so many problems with add ons, DPS meters and so forth. They literally did nothing to punish players who berated and harassed others. The tools themselves aren't going to cause toxicity to suddenly run rampant despite what many think. It's the minority of jerks being allowed to do as they please that would.

But it can shape the balance of the game. That is why I say no to having them allowed and accepted.

[SleepyNeko]

I feel that this gets brought up because of the recent WoW Streamers turning into FF Streamers and are using many addons (beyond ACT) that people did not know about before. Stuff like weak auras, Cactbot and Trig makes the game so much easier like some 100% reliable pro standing next to you telling you what you need to do and what is about to happen in the fight.