Why did the Ascians never try to do these?

[SannaR]

Been wondering this for awhile but there are two things that the Ascians seemed to have thought of let alone try over the thousands of years. One is time travel as the idea didn't seem to have come across their thoughts. Course we don't know when they first came across a shard of Legorith as the only one we know of is the only one that seems to have an affinity for time based magic.

The other thing at least according to Emet when choosing to allow us to go on a Lightwarden killing spree is the idea of trying the diplomatic approach. You'd think they could have tried with the Allagans or Mach.

[WhiteArchmage]

For the first it seems that Time Travel was thought impossible until Alexander did it, and then Cid and his students (and his students' students) perfected the Shard Hopping and Time Travel mechanics.

The diplomatic approach... well... given that the Ascian Agenda is a massive loss of life in controlled scenarios to trigger the Rejoinings, and they don't actually consider the Spoken races as "People" in the first place... from their PoV it's like a Butcher trying Diplomacy with Cattle. Also, Emet was in charge of CREATING Allag, and Garlemald, for the explicit purpose of sowing Chaos, so... yeah...

"Peace was never an option"

[Anonymoose]

One is time travel as the idea didn't seem to have come across their thoughts.

Emet-Selch's comment that the Exarch opened "new worlds of possibility" suggests the Ascians believed it couldn't be done until he did it, thus suggesting that the Ascians are more than a little disinclined to innovation. I'd be curious as to why. A little "if it were possible we'd have known about it in our time" arrogance? A little "only Zodiark can bend time to His will" interference from the tempering? Who can say.

The other thing at least according to Emet when choosing to allow us to go on a Lightwarden killing spree is the idea of trying the diplomatic approach.

To be fair, his diplomatic approach was not in good faith. It was another calculated scheme. He bought himself time to course-correct and learned more about what was going on with his enemies (as the Exarch had just done something impossible).

His diplomacy was rooted in pragmatism. There was a small chance the Warrior of Light might accept Emet's perspective that they "only stand to gain" from the Rejoinining, and then, if not, there was still a larger chance that the Warrior of Light could be used to control the Light until they eventually transformed into the very monster that would usher in the Calamity course-correction. And if neither of those happened, he could always just kill them. It was win/win/win. Until it wasn't.

And I wouldn't discount the probability that Emet-Selch's approach was influenced by the Warrior of Light being a shard of Azem. Emet-Selch secretly crafted the Azem stone despite his tempering; he must not have believed that it was necessarily at odds with Zodiark or the salvation of the world as he understood it needing saving. He perhaps held some self-delusion that Azem, given enough time and opportunity, would willingly return to the fold. When what had to be done was done, Emet-Slech wanted Azem there. I think that's perhaps why he was so angry to see that, even after spending time with him, the Warrior of Light not only continued to defy him, but in the final moments of their conflict stood with the silhouette of Azem themselves.

[Ardox]

When what had to be done was done, Emet-Slech wanted Azem there. I think that's perhaps why he was so angry to see that, even after spending time with him, the Warrior of Light not only continued to defy him, but in the final moments of their conflict stood with the silhouette of Azem themselves.

See, I always thought he didn't recognize Azem's soul before the very last moment. At the end of Amaurot, Emet-Selch seems surprise, not angry. And it make sense, Emet-Selch didn't interacted with us before we slay the first light warden and the light would had hide the WoL soul's color (just like it confused Y'shtola in Rak'tika).

[Anonymoose]

See, I always thought he didn't recognize Azem's soul before the very last moment.

If it helps, my interpretation is rooted in Hythlodaeus, who can tell on-sight that we were Azem and speculates that Emet-Selch did, too.

Hythlodaeus
A hue that distinctive cannot be mistaken, no matter how thin the soul is spread. Hah! This is just the kind of fate I might expect for one such as [them]. Surely Emet-Selch has recognized the hint of “[them]” in you...?

[Ardox]

If it helps, my interpretation is rooted in Hythlodaeus, who can tell on-sight that we were Azem and speculates that Emet-Selch did, too.

I don't know, it feels like it spoils the "reveal" moment if Emet-Selch knew and tried to convince his old friend. Also from Tales from the Shadow : Through His Eyes, we know that Emet-Selch is sometime susceptible to bouts of hope

«*Yet in spite of himself, when he cradled the newborn in his arms and stroked that downy hair, he could not help but hope. For what, he could not be certain, but he hoped nonetheless*»

[SannaR]

To be fair, his diplomatic approach was not in good faith. It was another calculated scheme. He bought himself time to course-correct and learned more about what was going on with his enemies (as the Exarch had just done something impossible).

His diplomacy was rooted in pragmatism. There was a small chance the Warrior of Light might accept Emet's perspective that they "only stand to gain" from the Rejoinining, and then, if not, there was still a larger chance that the Warrior of Light could be used to control the Light until they eventually transformed into the very monster that would usher in the Calamity course-correction. And if neither of those happened, he could always just kill them. It was win/win/win. Until it wasn't.

And I wouldn't discount the probability that Emet-Selch's approach was influenced by the Warrior of Light being a shard of Azem. Emet-Selch secretly crafted the Azem stone despite his tempering; he must not have believed that it was necessarily at odds with Zodiark or the salvation of the world as he understood it needing saving. He perhaps held some self-delusion that Azem, given enough time and opportunity, would willingly return to the fold. When what had to be done was done, Emet-Slech wanted Azem there. I think that's perhaps why he was so angry to see that, even after spending time with him, the Warrior of Light not only continued to defy him, but in the final moments of their conflict stood with the silhouette of Azem themselves.

It feels odd at least to me that they didn't. Or maybe someone did, but it wasn't seen as a thing that was needed and thus wouldn't have benefited the rest of society. Just like Owain and his cure for tempering.

I knew that in the long run the whole diplomatic approach was a farce and Emet buying time for a course correct. I just wondered why they didn't try I sooner as part of the unsundered dislike of the sundered is that we don't remember even after some are awoken to the echo how things were. Or if like if in Mass Effect where at the end of a cycle the main race figured out that there was a cycle and at the end of each cycle the Reapers would come and reset galactic civilization. Where instead of the Reapers it's the Ascians. In an attempt to get a past WoL and friends on their side as we know from the Ivalice raids WoLs do have the ability to seemingly go against Hydelean. In that a WoL during the time of Allag or even Mach could or even should be able to somewhat understand the whole hey the world didn't always be the source and the shards.

Oh, I definitely think Emet had some inner struggles about his plan to use us as a weapon or to try and turn us. Watching others get to the part at the top of the Ladder and have the part of Emet say that we wouldn't remember any of the stuff he just reminisced about while side eyeing us play just makes me want an echo flashback happen.
Sure, it would most likely be highly spoilery as at that time we didn't know about Amurot or Hythlodaeus. But it would have been funny to us in hindsight if we had a very very faded memory of Emet, Hythlodaeus and Azem doing something silly where Emet is wondering why their our friends.

[Rymi64]

If it helps, my interpretation is rooted in Hythlodaeus, who can tell on-sight that we were Azem and speculates that Emet-Selch did, too.

I think he noticed the first time we see him in the first after running away from ranjit into IL mheg. http://imgur.com/gallery/yjgF211

[RyuDragnier]

I don't know, it feels like it spoils the "reveal" moment if Emet-Selch knew and tried to convince his old friend. Also from Tales from the Shadow : Through His Eyes, we know that Emet-Selch is sometime susceptible to bouts of hope

I think he wanted to believe that we were Azem from the beginning. If our souls could handle all the light without cracking or breaking, it's very likely Emet would have recognized us as Azem and stopped what he was doing, the person he was trying to get back was right in front of him. While one could point out a "moving of the goalposts" with his hopes, it's very well possible that as the full 14/14 Azem, such a feat would have been easy for us to perform without causing us much issue. We probably would have also dissipated the light on our own or moved it directly to the 13th as a stabilizing factor.

[Catapult]

Emet-Selch's comment that the Exarch opened "new worlds of possibility" suggests the Ascians believed it couldn't be done until he did it, thus suggesting that the Ascians are more than a little disinclined to innovation. I'd be curious as to why. A little "if it were possible we'd have known about it in our time" arrogance? A little "only Zodiark can bend time to His will" interference from the tempering? Who can say.

The difficulty I have with this is the fact that Courgevais, an ascian, provided the horn which would power Alexander's core. It means at least one ascian had to have been aware that a time-travelling-city primal was on the board. That they do not act on this more meaningfully requires assuming that the ascians are disorganized lone actors who don't talk to eachother about their plots.

...which they kind of are. But that disorganized? *sigh*

The best conclusion I can take from this is that Courgevais may very well be (or be a pawn of) a convocation member with their own autonomous plots. Meaning that they have thought of it, but deliberately neglected to tell Emet. And they still need dealing with.